1 (edited by cupakm 2023-09-18 22:03:01)

Topic: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

Hi there,

I wonder if there are some temperature measurements how much heat the interfaces / converters tend to dissipate, as it already was discussed a few timer over quite a long period of time, for example:
- UCX II https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=33701
- BabyFace https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=23328
- old MultiFace1 https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=14952

From my previous experience or expectations:
- original BabyFace: Typical power consumption: 3,6 Watt, absolutely not to be felt on the desk at all, gets a tiny bit warmer with P48 on
- QuadMic2: 6 W, nothing to be really felt
- ADI-2: 8 W, somewhat warmer, noticeable, but still fine
- MF2: 12 W, I could keep my teacup warm on top of it... for real

Sadly, I don't have any full-size current-gen unit (UFX II / III, 12Mic) at hand, but if the heat dissipation correlated with the wattage, then those get comparably hot or even hotter, as the above mentioned UCX II thread describes, but some say it gets better: "FF400 extremely hot vs UCX II not heating at all" https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 96#p180096

My uneducated guess is the heat-to-performance ratio tends to improve over hardware generations, as in CPUs, GPUs, etc. I'd think most of the heat comes from FPGAs.

Anyway, apart from using rubber feet / generous rack spacing, or active ventilation like fans, there isn't much to be done about it.
Am I correct?

2 (edited by ramses 2023-07-28 13:56:33)

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

Often, people get worried too quickly when they feel a device becoming warmer than around 45 °C. However, electronic devices, like CPUs, can handle higher temperatures, up to 90 °C. It's crucial to stay within the specified operating temperatures provided by the manufacturer. RME designs their devices well, ensuring they perform according to their specs within the documented temperature range.

Refer to the RME manual for technical details, regarding operating conditions, taking UFX III as an example here:

    Temperature range: +5° to +50° Celsius (41°F to 122°F)
    Relative humidity: < 75%, non-condensing

If you're placing devices in a poorly ventilated rack (which is common), it's strongly recommended to leave some space between them to prevent excessive heat buildup.

For example, I use only three devices in a 4 RU rack, providing approximately one finger's width of space between each device.

In short, don't overthink it. Just ensure there's some space between devices for a little airflow.

For reference:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/3039-06-rack-front-jpg/

Same for the two Lexicons below, 2 devices in a 3 RU rack unit.

I would also take care of, that the racks are not too deep and just fit for devices and cabling.
So for the typical RME devices I use Thomann Ecorack, which is 23 cm deep.
The Lexicons are taller and required a rack which is at least 35 cm deep.

Careful if you put one rack onto the other, for this they are not being made.
The feets of the upper rack puts too much pressure on the rack below.
So I had to use a wooden plate between them to stabilize it.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

3 (edited by Muffin 2023-07-28 14:16:59)

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

Here is one temperature measurement of the UCX II, placed on top of an ADI-2 DAC FS, posted on audiosciencereview.com:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … ost-957055

4 (edited by ramses 2023-07-28 15:04:22)

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

Muffin wrote:

Here is one temperature measurement of the UCX II, placed on top of an ADI-2 DAC FS, posted on audiosciencereview.com:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … ost-957055

One of those typical threads where people kind of overreact.
The devices simply have good heat dissipation via the casing and that's it.
All you need to provide is to allow for a little airflow in the rack.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

ramses wrote:
Muffin wrote:

Here is one temperature measurement of the UCX II, placed on top of an ADI-2 DAC FS, posted on audiosciencereview.com:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … ost-957055

One of those typical threads where people kind of overreact.
The devices simply have good heat dissipation via the casing and that's it.
All you need to provide is to allow for a little airflow in the rack.

Heat reduces the lifetime of electronics so why shouldn't they be concerned and ask questions?

6 (edited by ramses 2023-07-28 16:37:53)

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

Heat and wear, however, are hardly avoidable side effects of electronics, especially when devices are designed to be high-performing. This requires a powerful CPU that generates heat, which is naturally dissipated through the casing – a sensible design choice.

That's why I say yes, you should make sure that if you have a passively cooled rack, that the devices have some distance between them so that the heat doesn't build up.

It's interesting how people don't react as strongly to tube or Class-A amplifiers.

One should perhaps not have wrong expectations and compare a highly capable ADI-2 DAC/Pro with an "ordinary" converter that only performs basic D/A conversion. Naturally, the latter runs cooler when it doesn't have much else to handle.

Always remember that this series of devices has been meticulously designed to operate this way, and they have proven to be successful and reliable in the market for many years.

I would simply trust RME's many years of design and studio experience here.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

ramses wrote:

Heat and wear, however, are hardly avoidable side effects of electronics, especially when devices are designed to be high-performing. This requires a powerful CPU that generates heat, which is naturally dissipated through the casing – a sensible design choice.

That's why I say yes, you should make sure that if you have a passively cooled rack, that the devices have some distance between them so that the heat doesn't build up.

It's interesting how people don't react as strongly to tube or Class-A amplifiers.

One should perhaps not have wrong expectations and compare a highly capable ADI-2 DAC/Pro with an "ordinary" converter that only performs basic D/A conversion. Naturally, the latter runs cooler when it doesn't have much else to handle.

Always remember that this series of devices has been meticulously designed to operate this way, and they have proven to be successful and reliable in the market for many years.

I would simply trust RME's many years of design and studio experience here.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, and besides, I do own both the ADI-2 DAC FS as well as the UCX II. Device generated heat and ambient temperature is always a concern.

The last time I owned anything with a tube in it was old tube radios when I was a child, but not exactly germane to this discussion.

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

I don't find it helpful when links are shared without indicating what you want to express with them. What are you actually trying to convey to cupakm?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

9 (edited by Muffin 2023-07-28 23:53:09)

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

ramses wrote:

I don't find it helpful when links are shared without indicating what you want to express with them. What are you actually trying to convey to cupakm?

You could try reading his post where he asks in the very first sentence: "I wonder if there are some temperature measurements how much heat the interfaces / converters tend to dissipate" [about UCX II, among others]

The link I gave had some temperature measurements for UCX II, something you failed to give.

10 (edited by cupakm 2023-07-29 21:30:58)

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

Guys, thanks to both of you for your answers.

I conclude answer to my own question "Am I correct?" - yes, "apart from using rubber feet / generous rack spacing, or active ventilation like fans, there isn't much to be done about it." - they will get warm, some more, others less, but most probably adequate to their Typical power consumption, stated in manual(s).

Maybe one could also slap a heatsink with thermal pads onto the unit, in order to dissipate the heat more effectively, but it probably isn't really needed.

11 (edited by cupakm 2023-09-18 23:57:26)

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

Muffin wrote:

Here is one temperature measurement of the UCX II, placed on top of an ADI-2 DAC FS, posted on audiosciencereview.com:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … ost-957055

Someone there wrote "I see temps (using a contactless thermometer) in range from 40.1° C to 41.5° C, while bottom plate is hotter it is beyond the measure range of my thermometer." - well I can confirm top temps, bottom runs like 45° C to 47° C, with feet, In complete idle: no matter muted ins, muted outs, no processing, no P48... not cool. Literally :-D

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

Heat management in homerecording is often underrated while room acoustics get overforced.
Walls coated with foam, window stays closed (neighbors shall not hear the bad playing) and 20 rack gear is running all day long.
Sometimes one finds himself in a Sauna !
You have to deal with it.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

A FF400 in a hot rack will last around ten years. On a desk, with ample ventilation, it will last around twenty years.

And even when it fails, it's easy enough to have it recapped, in case RME runs out of replacement boards.

Some electronics last longer, some not. How many working interfaces do you encounter after twenty years professional use? Probably none, as they will have been obsoleted by unavailable drivers.

I have a pair of very old Emagic 6/2 and 2/6 USB 1.1 audio interfaces somewhere. Still work with an old G4 Mac, but that's not really workable is it? Even Linux dropped these drivers from the kernel years ago...

Oh, I forgot. The G4 went belly up a few weeks ago :-)

MB Pro - 2 X FireFace 400, FF800 & DigiFace USB
ADAT gear: Korg, Behri, Fostex, Alesis...

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

cyrano wrote:

A FF400 in a hot rack will last around ten years. On a desk, with ample ventilation, it will last around twenty years.

Is this your experience, or where you get the numbers from?

cyrano wrote:

And even when it fails, it's easy enough to have it recapped, in case RME runs out of replacement boards.

Got one Multiface II lying around, actually wanted to use but all the analog inputs hiss quite a lot - pretty much like described here https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27915
Asked RME support about how can let it service (because I never before in 10 years needed to service RME stuff...), but didn't get an answer, sadly.

Anyway I wonder why I measure UCX II draws constant 11 W (and is pretty warm) even when I mute ins, outs, turn off P48, DSP processing... the device appears not to distinguish any heavy load, light use or idling. No matter what it takes its 11 or 12 watt and that is it.

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

We have a number of FF400s in operation. Don't know if it's currently 12 or 14.

Started out with one when these were new. Since we've replaced every audio interface with FF400s. Later, we added a pair of FF800 and one  Digiface USB.

Most were MOTU before. We didn't have many problems with MOTU, but were a bit tired of waiting for driver updates and the local importer changed from standard exchange to telling us these were obsolete. Same happened with Presonus. We had two of their digital mixers.

Two of the early FF400s became problematic. One had a FW problem. Replacing the FW chip solved that. The other one only connected on external power, not on bus power. That one has been recapped and works perfectly now.

One of the FF800 got severely damaged FW ports and is being repaired as we speak. Both FW800 ports were loose and the FW400 port didn't function either. I think someone tripped over the long FW cable.

Most of these used to be in a rack because it was deemed safer. Now, most are used outside of the rack. Every tech has his own FF400, so they seem to take better care of it.

The Digiface is the newest one of the bunch. No problems there.

The biggest problem was getting our techs onto TotalMix. Some don't like the digital world. Getting them their "personal" FF400 solved that, since they can take it home and try it out there. Since that happened, they even adopted to digital mixers like the X32 that has replaced the Presonuses.

MB Pro - 2 X FireFace 400, FF800 & DigiFace USB
ADAT gear: Korg, Behri, Fostex, Alesis...

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

cyrano I'm not quite sure what are you responding to with the X32, Presonuses and MOTU history of yours... do you want to demonstrate FF400 lasts 20 years if recapped? I don't get it...

17 (edited by mr.r 2024-04-01 00:45:40)

Re: Heat dissipation - bus-powered / half-rack / full-size units

cupakm wrote:
cyrano wrote:

A FF400 in a hot rack will last around ten years. On a desk, with ample ventilation, it will last around twenty years.

Is this your experience, or where you get the numbers from?

cyrano wrote:

And even when it fails, it's easy enough to have it recapped, in case RME runs out of replacement boards.

Got one Multiface II lying around, actually wanted to use but all the analog inputs hiss quite a lot - pretty much like described here https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27915
Asked RME support about how can let it service (because I never before in 10 years needed to service RME stuff...), but didn't get an answer, sadly.

Anyway I wonder why I measure UCX II draws constant 11 W (and is pretty warm) even when I mute ins, outs, turn off P48, DSP processing... the device appears not to distinguish any heavy load, light use or idling. No matter what it takes its 11 or 12 watt and that is it.

That would be a great thing if the power consumption were lower when using fewer channels. I run the interface almost the whole day, but most of the time I just use two outputs for monitoring.