• Registered: 2023-10-15
  • Posts: 2

Topic: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

Hello,

I want to use the Analog Outputs on the back of my RME Fireface 802 for individual headphone-mixes in my studio. The two headphone-In at the front are working fine but they are not enogh for a band (4-6 Members) to have seperat headphone mixes. By using the 8 Analog Outputs an the back theres only sound on the left ear but nothing on the right. In the TotalFXMixer the Output-Channel shows that there is a signal for both ears (stereo signal) but I can't hear the right one. Every Analog Output can only be heard on the left ear. Output 1 is left, Output 2 is also left and so on. Output 1/2 should be a stereo signal together. When I'm using a Y stereo-cable to connect a PA the sound gets quiter when both are connected. When I'm using just 1 of the Y-Cable it gets loader again.
Please help me to solve this problem:
How can I fix that everything can only be heard on the left ear? Can the Analog Outputs be used for headphones in general? If not is there another chance to solve my problem getting more headphones than 2?

Thanks to everyone helping a Newbie trying to setup a nice studio

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-10-17 11:16:39)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,161

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

One analog output is a mono channel for stereo you need two.

EDIT: But a line level output is not well suited to drive headphones, see comment from MC below. You should better use a headphone preamp for this.

As I do not know your exact requirements or budget, here a couple of products that I found in the Thomann shop down to around €200:

This one you can connect it to your recording interface using either analog ports or by using ADAT and some more features:
https://www.thomann.de/de/motu_monitor_8.htm

Less expensive products (price high to low):
https://www.thomann.de/de/tascam_mh8.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/rolls_ra_62c.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/art_headamp_6_pro.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/presonus_hp60.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/art_headamp_6.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/mackie_hm_800.htm
https://www.thomann.de/de/behringer_ha6000.htm

I can't tell you anything in terms of quality or whether those headphone preamps are powerful enough to drive each of your headphones, which will have different impedance and sensitivities.

For comparison: RME recording interface with quite nice headphone outputs deliver between 90 mW (BBF Pro FS, the louder of the two headphone outputs) up to 210 mW per channel (UFX III).
The reference converter (ADI-2 Pro) delivers even up to 1.5W (!) and, in balanced mode, 2.9W per channel, which is sufficient to drive even the most insensitive headphones with high impedance.

I would ask a shop which you trust. Tell them your budget and which headphones you have, maybe they can recommend you something good.
Especially useful might be those products with a routing matrix of their own, and perhaps up to 4 or even 8 inputs that give you the flexibility, that every musician can configure his individual submix. At least a product where you have two stereo inputs and on every headphone output a mix knob to fine-tune the level between stereo mix A and B and the final volume.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • From: Germany, Tuvalu, Poland, Chile
  • Registered: 2021-07-27
  • Posts: 463

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

How can I fix that everything can only be heard on the left ear? Can the Analog Outputs be used for headphones in general?

Of course, you can!

As you have a 802, you can use the Outputs AN1/2, AN3/4, AN5/6, AN7/8 as 4 additional Headphone Outputs.

All you need, is a Y-Cable like this one (for 6,3 mm Headphone Jacks):
https://www.markstein.de/Kabeladapter-2 … 0btcaybmlQ

If you want 3,2 mm female Jacks for your Headphones, just search in google...

All you have to do is to assign the the reference level of the 8 analog line outputs to your Headphones in TotalmixFX. You can choose from -10 dBV, +4 dBu and HiGain. See Page 56 in the (german) FF802 Manual.

Works without any Problems in my Environment and with different Types of Headphones.


Output 1 is left, Output 2 is also left and so on.

That is not right. AN1 OUT is left, AN2 OUT is right... and so on...
Look here:
https://www.rme-usa.com/files/uploads/R … -802-C.png

I would try a cheap 3-Euro Y-cable first, before buying additional hardware (@ramses) ;-)

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-10-16 07:17:59)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,161

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

> I would try a cheap 3-Euro Y-cable first, before buying additional hardware (@ramses) ;-)

Ok, then good luck.

The link I referred to has brought me to the view that the line level outputs would not be suitable.

Maybe I have it wrong in my mind, but also the higher output impedance of line level outputs compared to headphone outputs is something where I think that those outputs are not well suited for headphones.

From an operational perspective / safety:

- Above all, one would have there for the volume control only the combination of different reference levels and digital gain up to 12 dB. I would not be sure whether that would not be too complicated in terms of handling.

- You should also be careful that the change to another snapshot on all channels does not lead to a sudden volume change.
I would prefer something like an analog potentiometer per channel that most of the solutions provide, or a device where the volume setting is decoupled from restoring TM FX Snapshots and Quick Workspace Select slots.

To prevent too high volume on the analog outputs for the ears:
I would save tested settings to each of your snapshots, whether you use them or not and set the unused ones perhaps additionally to mute.
You should also check whether hitting ALT-1 ... ALT-9 doesn't restore settings from a Quick Workspace select slot with too high a volume, not to hurt your ears.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • From: Germany, Tuvalu, Poland, Chile
  • Registered: 2021-07-27
  • Posts: 463

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

> Ok, then good luck.

Why good luck?

ramses, i do not want to be rude. Nothing personally, ok? Just this thread....

My FF802 works perfectly via the (servo-balanced) analog Outs and the Y-Cables in combination of the regular Phone Outs.
5 totally different Headphones. Even the cheap Apple EarPods (Impedancy around 40 Ohm), Headsets, Beyerdynamics DT 997 and two AKGs...

Everything is described inside the manual:

p.39:

...
Channels 9 to 12 of the Fireface are available on the front as 1/4" TRS jacks. These channels
use the same converters as the other Line outputs, therefore offer the same technical data (118
dBA SNR).
Instead of using internal electronic switches, their output level is changed step-less with the VOL
pot. These outputs are special low impedance types, ready to be used with headphones. But they
can also be used as high-quality (yet unbalanced) Line outputs
...

p.95:

...
DA, Line Out 1-8, rear...
 Maximum output level: +19 dBu
 Output: 6.3 mm TRS jack, servo-balanced
 Output impedance: 75 Ohm
 Output level switchable Hi Gain, +4 dBu, -10 dBV
 Output level at 0 dBFS @ Hi Gain: +19 dBu
 Output level at 0 dBFS @ +4 dBu: +13 dBu
 Output level at 0 dBFS @ -10 dBV: +2 dBV

DA - Stereo Monitor Output Phones (9-12)
As DA, but:
 Output: 6.3 mm TRS stereo jack, unbalanced
 Maximum output level at 0 dBFS: +16.8 dBu
 Output impedance: 24 Ohm
...

The differences should be clear now? OK - Yo do not have a separate Poti for the Heaadphones via the AN Outs...

the link, you referred to, is more a basically desciption, pointing to a focusrite, but without any further technical specs/details/background.

-> But a line level output won't have enough power to drive headphones.
It is slightly - Not true.

As SimJoW has a FF802, he has the possibilities to get exactly that, what he asks for.
Without any additional Interface (bought at thomann???) like a Motu Monitor V8 (1200 Euro???). And all the other links...

-> I would not be sure whether that would not be too complicated in terms of handling.
Why? Once set up, saved as a snapshot/workspace, and you can recall your settings via multiple ways (MIDI/OSC/Shortcuts/ARC Remote, etc...)


In TM you can set all the Headphone-Outs to the Control room. And then you can set in the global Prefs, the snapshots should/do not load the faders of the control room levels.
This setting also affects the Quick Workspaces.

The only thing i agree to you, ramses, is that you should keep in mind that switching workspaces, switches the reference level settings too, if the Analog-Outs vary whether they belong to the control room or not.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard
  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,161

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

You're reading too much into it. You have to consider the first sentence in connection with the second one, where I explained that the internet article may have 'confused' me a bit.

Additionally, I had in mind that headphone outputs should ideally have a low impedance, and that one should prefer using a headphone output as a line output rather than the other way around. Perhaps that's incorrect, but it should somehow be clarified.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,565

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

From the linked article:

> Unlike line outs, headphone outs have a low source impedance. They come with impedance between 16 ohms and 600 ohms.

That is obviously wrong. The author talks about typical headphone impedances, not the headphone out impedance - which is between 0 and 100 Ohms.

As mentioned Line Outs are typically too low in volume due to their impedance acting as voltage divider with the headphone. Plus frequency response can be affected. We discussed this here several times already.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Kubrak
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2023-08-03
  • Posts: 541

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

I would translate what MC said.

While it may be possible to use line outs as headphone outs, it is not very recomended as, depending on headphone impedance, signal may be too weak and also frequency response may be affected.

9 Reply by maggie33 (edited by maggie33 2023-10-17 21:27:13)

  • From: Germany, Tuvalu, Poland, Chile
  • Registered: 2021-07-27
  • Posts: 463

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

as ramses deleted the link from his first post  to the related article  - just for those, who want to understand.
https://geekmusician.com/line-out-vs-headphone-out/

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard
  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,161

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

maggie33 wrote:

as ramses deleted the link from his first post  to the related article  - just for those, who want to understand.
https://geekmusician.com/line-out-vs-headphone-out/

I intentionally deleted this link because it contains incorrect information according to MC.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

11 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,565

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

Well, it's more about clear writing. If you read those two sentences and refer the 'They' to 'headphones' in the first sentence, the statement would be correct. But I read it as referred to 'headphone outs'. Maybe native speakers would see it the other way.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • From: Germany, Tuvalu, Poland, Chile
  • Registered: 2021-07-27
  • Posts: 463

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

I also read it as referred to 'headphone outs'. If you look at the sentences before and after - i think the author maybe wrote sth different as he meant. Never seen 600 Ohms in an Anlogue Line/Phone Out...

The whole article seems more a basic thing for me. Basically its OK. But  you can not compare a scralett 2i2 and "many" other interfaces up in this way with a FF802 f.ex.

Sure, if i want really Hi-Fi Sound via Headphones, i would always use the Phone Outs.

But for a 4-6 people-band which wants to use seperate Headphones for jamming or monitoring, it should be definetly possible without additional hardware. If the perfect frequency response does not matter.

@ramses: I just wanted to suggest an alternative way for SimJoW - your first (original) post and all the links to an online retailer (who was convicted of antitrust violations in 2021) seemed a bit overdrawn for me. Thats all. Peace.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

13 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-10-19 23:49:10)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,161

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

maggie33 wrote:

[...]
@ramses: I just wanted to suggest an alternative way for SimJoW - your first (original) post and all the links to an online retailer (who was convicted of antitrust violations in 2021) seemed a bit overdrawn for me. Thats all. Peace.

Overdrawn? Sorry, but what are you complaining about? If you look closely, I also put many cheaper articles on the list, down to Behringer for only €198. The shop had no filter for this kind of products, to make a one-liner out of it.

Regarding T: you'll have to leave that up to me, which store I think is the most suitable. After all, it's my private time. The reason I use them is, e.g., that the product photos have an excellent quality, which helps everyone involved, including me, in the research.

Where someone buys in the end, everyone can decide for himself and I do not care. By the way, I also use normal URLs, I earn nothing from it.

If I look at what's going on in the world, I would have to look for another planet, T. is the least of my problems.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • From: Germany, Tuvalu, Poland, Chile
  • Registered: 2021-07-27
  • Posts: 463

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

Didn't want to attack you directly. Sorry. It just seemed a little strange.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

15 Reply by SimJoW (edited by SimJoW 2023-11-02 11:30:01)

  • Registered: 2023-10-15
  • Posts: 2

Re: RME Fireface 802 Using Analog Outputs for Headphones

Thank you all for your time answering to my question! Appreciate that alot!
I actually made a big mistake in setting up my studio. The cable that I put through the wall to connect the recording-room where the musicians are playing and the studio where the producer sits, were mono instrumentcable. For a guitar or bass Input those cable were right but for headphones mono-cable are only sending a mono signal. Thats why every musician in the recording room could only hear bad sound on one ear. I swapped all cables that I wanted to use for Headphone-Outputs to stereo and now everything works fine.
I'm using a Focusrite Scarlett OctoPre to expand the Inputs that I have. It is connected with ADAT. I can use the ADAT Input without any problem. But I still need to figure how to use the 8 ADAT Output (4 Stereo Outputs) that can be mixed indivudially to expand the number of different headphone mixes that I can send to the musicians. Right now I only have 3 in the recording room (AN 3/4, AN 5/6, AN 7/8). AN 1/2 and the Ph-Mixes are used in the studio room. I can splitt the signal to add more headphones but there are still only 3 different mixes possible. By using the ADAT-Out from the Scarlett OctoPre I wish to get more individual headphone mixes. But right now the Output of the Scarlett OctoPre only sends back the Input thats directy connected to the Inputs of the Scarlett OctoPre not the whole Output of the RME Fireface 802. I guess it needs to be rooted differently. Will try to figure that out as fast as possible.
Anyway, the Headphones work for now. Thanks a lot to you all!