Topic: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

Hello
I'm not clear on this DriverKit driver  and Kernel Extension Driver.
I'm already running driver v3.28 with no noticeable issues. But I was thinking of updating. I know I need to run the firmware update first. But what is the difference between the DriverKit driver and the Kernel Extension Driver? Do I need them both, or is one just a newer version of the driver? Sorry but I'm just a musician, the site is a little vague on what these two files are?  The extension driver says it's for the M1, (which I have) But the other Kit driver with the same date says  nothing about the M1 on it's download page, Is that for the Intel chip? I've already looked thought he readme files. I don't understand what I need hear.

Thank You


Mac OS Ventura

RME Fireface UCX II
UCX II - Firmware: v39
UCX II - Driver: v3.28

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

Short version is the DriverKit driver is the one that follows Apple's latest driver standards.

The Kernel Extension driver support within the Mac operating system has been threatened with removal, but currently still works wink

If you're not having any issues, I'd leave well enough alone for now!

If you do want to switch drivers, you might need to update your firmware using the Kernel driver first, then install the DriverKit driver which removes the Kernel driver.

Mac Studio M1 Max, Sonoma, RME UFX III, 12Mic, Pulse 16 MX, Softube Console 1, Studio One 6/7

3 (edited by mike G 2023-05-03 03:54:04)

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

Thanks for this info babul. That was a huge certification help!

I know standards are usually a good thing, but they tend to restrict vendor freedom. So... Out of curiosity: do you see the new standards as a good thing down the road? I recall in a post last night, one of the RME team members mentioned "Apple is closing the door on us." But I also noticed a ton of functionality issues which I believe is why you're implying, "If it aint broke don't fix it.

One last thing. I read that if you decide to take the path of the new driver-Kit, you don't need to worry about the security settings at the low boot level, but you still need to enter the three passwords in the privacy/securely windows in the menu at the top bar once booted up. I'm on a PC atm typing this so I can't remember the menu name. I left my security reduced anyway since I don't use this mac for anything other than recording.

On a side note, I know Apple makes good products, but I hate when company's force people to update and change things that work. I won't go into this, but it's the reason I never went back to school to renew my computer IT certifications. Microsoft started following the path of Apple and now with all this Software as a service, I want to throw my computers out the windows and go live out in the woods with the bears.

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

Using the new DriverKit drivers does not require you to reduce your Mac security to install/use, since they follow the new security model. On boot using DriverKit, no passwords (after install) are required.

Standards are what they are - they allow us all to get along and (hopefully) advance haha. New standards always require a transition period, accompanied with an overstated amount of grumbling wink

I am only a consumer of Apple's and RME's tech, and hoping for the best is all we can do, right? I am not familiar with the deep intricacies of what Apple and RME have to engineer around for best experience/safety for each customer group. But what is guaranteed is everything in tech keeps moving forward. "Restricting vendor freedom" could also be called "opportunity to innovate" wink

I've only had my RME interface for a week, so I have no long term experience yet. But I purchased RME because of their famed long term driver support & stability, including navigating all of the hurdles of tech advancement over the last 20 years. From everything I've seen about RME so far, I believe they will be the best steward of keeping my interface relevant and usable for the long term. For the previous decade I have been on Presonus interfaces. I am hoping when the UFX VII comes out I'll still be happily using my UFX III.

Of course if I could predict the future well, I would be happily in Aruba right now and not worrying about any of this LOL

This last week with my UFX III on DriverKit and my recent Mac has been completely stable, no matter what I have thrown at it. Not in full production with this setup yet, but ran one scratch session for a few hours, and I have no complaints or concerns so far. YMMV

Mac Studio M1 Max, Sonoma, RME UFX III, 12Mic, Pulse 16 MX, Softube Console 1, Studio One 6/7

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

babul wrote:

Using the new DriverKit drivers does not require you to reduce your Mac security to install/use, since they follow the new security model. On boot using DriverKit, no passwords (after install) are required.

Standards are what they are - they allow us all to get along and (hopefully) advance haha. New standards always require a transition period, accompanied with an overstated amount of grumbling wink

I am only a consumer of Apple's and RME's tech, and hoping for the best is all we can do, right? I am not familiar with the deep intricacies of what Apple and RME have to engineer around for best experience/safety for each customer group. But what is guaranteed is everything in tech keeps moving forward. "Restricting vendor freedom" could also be called "opportunity to innovate" wink

I've only had my RME interface for a week, so I have no long term experience yet. But I purchased RME because of their famed long term driver support & stability, including navigating all of the hurdles of tech advancement over the last 20 years. From everything I've seen about RME so far, I believe they will be the best steward of keeping my interface relevant and usable for the long term. For the previous decade I have been on Presonus interfaces. I am hoping when the UFX VII comes out I'll still be happily using my UFX III.

Of course if I could predict the future well, I would be happily in Aruba right now and not worrying about any of this LOL

This last week with my UFX III on DriverKit and my recent Mac has been completely stable, no matter what I have thrown at it. Not in full production with this setup yet, but ran one scratch session for a few hours, and I have no complaints or concerns so far. YMMV

Welcome on board! Happy RME user since 1999 and have installed many hundreds around Norway since then.
Still the very best IMHO.

Currently 18 RME systems deployed at current company.

Best,
Pål

6 (edited by docdoghouse 2024-01-18 09:08:35)

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

i still dont get it. what do i need to install?
As much as i love RME Hard- and Software, the more i cannot understand such a confusing driver situation. If there are two possible drivers for the same hardware and OSX Version, please state why!
I guess every owner of a silicone mac is aware of the need for changing the security settings in the startup option process.

7 (edited by waedi 2024-01-18 09:03:27)

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

docdoghouse wrote:

i still dont get it. what do i need to install?
As much as i love RME Hard- and Software, the more i cannot understand such a confusing driver situation. If there are two possible drivers for the same hardware and OSX Version, please state why!
I guess every owner of a silicone mac is aware of the need for chanching the security settings in the startup option process.


See this video :
https://youtu.be/Ilkwtb2MKrM

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

8 (edited by docdoghouse 2024-01-18 09:27:25)

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

thanks for the link. "both drivers has their strenght" muahaha....i get the feeling that the days of stable RME Interfaces are gone! btw: that a company like apple who is a data kraken and a CIA outpost uses the words "data security" is laughable. I think i will downgrade to monterey, use the kernel version (because this setup is running on two of my systems without any problems) and never ever update the OSX Version! (even if i will miss up a new set of emojis)
PLEASE RME: put some informations in the download section! Are you serious? A user has to go into the forum to find out whats all about that?

9 (edited by waedi 2024-01-18 10:20:25)

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

The user forum is a special service from RME, for free and very well maintained, everyone is invited to use the user forum and no one has to.
The video is published on the RME website - NEWS !

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

btw: that a company like apple who is a data kraken and a CIA outpost uses the words "data security" is laughable. I think i will downgrade to monterey, use the kernel version (because this setup is running on two of my systems without any problems) and never ever update the OSX Version!

someone who uses the words "data security", downgrades to monterey, uses the kernel version (because this setup is running on two of his systems without any problems) and never ever updates the OSX Version!


-> says it all... seems like an advise from a real professional roll

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

maggie33 wrote:

btw: that a company like apple who is a data kraken and a CIA outpost uses the words "data security" is laughable. I think i will downgrade to monterey, use the kernel version (because this setup is running on two of my systems without any problems) and never ever update the OSX Version!

someone who uses the words "data security", downgrades to monterey, uses the kernel version (because this setup is running on two of his systems without any problems) and never ever updates the OSX Version!


-> says it all... seems like an advise from a real professional roll

i am a musician and not a professional IT-nerd, and thats the point. I would like to make music and me for myself use macs for makin music (and stay offline, period) nothing else. So whats wrong about monterey? The problems i got obviously began with ventura on a second hand bought mac mini.
I had used every brand of audio interfaces and ended years ago as a happy REM user so now I am quite shocked that my beloved RME hardware that NEVER had any hickup in the past began to run unstable. So I asked myself if i downloaded the correct driver and now i have to investigate about kernel and driverkit bulls*it! btw: Mind your own frigging business!

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

waedi wrote:

The user forum is a special service from RME, for free and very well maintained, everyone is invited to use the user forum and no one has to.
The video is published on the RME website - NEWS !

true that! And without this forum no one would have any idea wich driver he has to download!
Is it to much asking for informations about the issue on the download section site?

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

is it fair to say that ventura is categorically no good? RME statet under the video that under sonoma everything will be fine? As a (personal) rule of thump it is not suggested to use the latest OSX (still waiting for a Roland silicon Integra-7 editor) so i am wondering: is it better to downgrade to monterey and use the kernel driver(wich runs super stable) or to update to sonoma an use the driverkit? I allways use my macs exclusively for my DAW (but understand that others use their computer for everyday work and want to get the newest updates and OS Version), so i am principally fine with using old OSX Versions.

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

docdoghouse wrote:

is it fair to say that ventura is categorically no good? RME statet under the video that under sonoma everything will be fine? As a (personal) rule of thump it is not suggested to use the latest OSX (still waiting for a Roland silicon Integra-7 editor) so i am wondering: is it better to downgrade to monterey and use the kernel driver(wich runs super stable) or to update to sonoma an use the driverkit? I allways use my macs exclusively for my DAW (but understand that others use their computer for everyday work and want to get the newest updates and OS Version), so i am principally fine with using old OSX Versions.

I would do the upgrade to newest version and if it not work a downgrade is still possible.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

docdoghouse wrote:

is it fair to say that ventura is categorically no good?

It's not fair to say that. But the DK driver doesn't work as well as the Kext one does, at least on my M2 with UCX.

Fireface UCX, Focusrite OctoPre, Sound Devices MixPre-D, Mac Studio M2 max, macOS Sonoma

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

docdoghouse wrote:

is it better to downgrade to monterey and use the kernel driver(wich runs super stable) or to update to sonoma an use the driverkit?.

Sonoma work super good with the kernel drivers (and so does Ventura btw) so I dont know why you would use Monterey.
Also you can test if the driverkit driver works for you (which it should) and if not just install the kernel driver instead.

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

It's absolutely okay not to know the details, or not to be an "IT nerd". It is also absolutely okay to ask questions and ask for help. But for me it is not okay to make insinuations against others due to ignorance, to condemn them and to spread dangerous half-knowledge. By this I am referring to your statement to recommend old systems.

"...Use macs for makin music (and stay offline, period) nothing else..."


The information that you operate your devices offline came only after my post. I don't know your workflow. But most people work online.

"...And now i have to investigate about kernel and driverkit bulls*it!..."

Apple alone has already introduced the System Extensions (DriverKit) in 2020 (for a good reason,  and people like you seem to be).
The kernel extensions can still be used with all macOS and processor variants. Since Ventura/Sonoma (ARM/Intel) Macs, Apple "forces" users to explicitly allow 3rd-party signed extensions in the SIP Settings. To limit accidental malware by users. It is a matter of time before Apple blocks Kernel Extensions completely.
The differences and functionality are clearly explained in the video. Apple explains it in deeper detail on their support pages - but that's too much here.
I therefore don't understand your displeasure with RME or any other company which provides both variants. Instead of being happy to be able to decide (still) by yourself, you behave like an angry customer in the supermarket who insults the cashier that there are red and green apples. Nowhere does it say which of them are healthier...

"btw: Mind your own frigging business!"

I provoked to make you think. all good!

"True that! And without this forum no one would have any idea wich driver he has to download! Is it to much asking for information about the issue on the download section site?"

Ahem..."No one..." I think it's just you yourself.
Both, the link to the video and an installation guide are displayed thick and bold on the main website. If you click on downloads. First and third picture.
https://www.rme-audio.com/downloads.html

"...The problems i got obviously began with ventura on a second hand bought mac mini...
... I am quite shocked that my beloved RME hardware that NEVER had any hiccup in the past began to run unstable..."

You have never described concrete details of what exactly is unstable.
Which unit, what type of driver, which version, which system is installed on. How could you be seriously helped?

"Is it fair to say that ventura is categorically no good? RME statet under the video that under sonoma everything will be fine?"


No one has said that Ventura is categorically bad.

"As a (personal) rule of thump it is not suggested to use the latest OSX"

Exactly. It's your "personal" rule. Many people think different.

"(still waiting for a Roland silicon Integra-7 editor)"

For Integra-7, there exist drivers for both Intel and Silicon Macs. And the AU and VST3 plugins for the Integra-7 Editor (v2.0.5) run on both architectures in Logic, and Cubase, etc.
In Sonoma, too. Sure, (Like all x_64-only plugins, Integra must be validated in Rosetta mode on Silicon Macs). And if Roland has not managed to adapt the plugins after 4 years since Silicon was released in 2020 - you can wait, but i think they will never do it (consider the Integra-7 was introduced in 2012)...

"is it better to downgrade to monterey and use the kernel driver(wich runs super stable) or to update to sonoma an use the driverkit?"

As I said, it's up to you! From MacOS 11, there are both driver variants. My suggestion is: if you use older Hardware, with low resources, kexts could be a better choice, as they are directly implemented into the kernel, resulting in lower security and stability. SystemExtensions are the opposite of this. But there is no general rule. How would it be to try it out?
And if there are problems, describe the problem in a friendly way and as detailed as possible.

regards, maggie

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

@maggie 33
Your objectiveness and kindness is really disarming. Thanks for your help, i am still not happy with the driver situation. I dont need different drivers "with strenght" I want ONE driver that works! I am sure RME is doin (as allways) their best to handle apples permanently changing software architecture but i still would suggest them to put some informations (or the link to the vid) about the topic in the download section. My anger has probanly to do with the facct that I am hating to be forced to skip running systems and struggling with new stuff nobodys needs or ever asked for. Regarding the Integra Editor, i still have some hope, on one of roland websites they say the editor for silicon is "under testing". Heck, they still sell the Integra as an actuell product. I never used Rosetta in my DAW computer because i want a "clean" system, whatever....

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

I want ONE driver that works!

Then stay on the driver, you had installed...
I understand your view of "never touch a running system" absolutely.

My anger has probanly to do with the facct that I am hating to be forced to skip running systems and struggling with new stuff nobodys needs or ever asked for.

"nobody" - i think you mean yourself.
I always look at the readme files after unzipping the drivers, the readme describes what has changed. Afterwards you can decide if its worth updating or not...

Who/what forced you to "skip running systems"? - I do not understand what you exactly mean. Or what your purpose is to update. It seems you have different Macs and different interfaces. So, its hard to understand and help you, without concrete problem description.

Regarding the Integra Editor, i still have some hope, on one of roland websites they say the editor for silicon is "under testing"

It gets really offtopic... Anyhow.

I think you mean this (for silicon):https://www.roland.com/global/support/s … 00a/#synth

And this for Intel:https://www.roland.com/global/support/s … 10i/#synth

Nothing about "under testing", as you see. Driver is supported, App is "limited"... I think you are out of luck. But it makes more sense if you contact roland directly.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

no, i ment this site:
https://www.roland.com/global/support/s … 0101100mr/

And i did not asked you for help, did I?
I got plenty of workstations and five different RME Interfaces. I can deal with this.
Life was easier before rme released a "Driverkit" and "Kerneldriver" , is this so hard to understand?
Please "Maggie" leave me alone and mind yourself from wich country you come from. Tuvalu! Ha!

21 (edited by waedi 2024-01-22 13:40:37)

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

Team Maggie !
What's wrong with Tuvalu ?
If you need a private doctor, public user forum is the wrong hospital...
(I mean not Maggie )

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

?? Whats the problem here?

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

23 (edited by s.wey 2024-05-17 14:16:07)

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

Just considering making the transition from kernel to driver kit because I guess pretty soon Apple will force this anyway. So my understanding is the driver kit install will remove the kernel driver so I don't have to uninstall anything first? However I do need to update the firmware before I do this because to do that uses the kernel driver.

Once I have updated I presume I will need to go back into Recovery mode one more time to restore the full Apple security settings?

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

update the firmware before I do this because to do that uses the kernel driver

.

Without knowing which unit/firmware you are running, its (always) recommend to update the firmware first.




I will need to go back into Recovery mode one more time to restore the full Apple security settings?

You do not really need to do this, but you "could". Anyhow, its always a good idea to keep/raise security related settings as high as possible.

As mentioned here: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 00#p191800

Notes
A previously installed kernel extension driver, like 3.27, does not need to be uninstalled. It will be overwritten automatically. After that you could set the system security back to normal, unless any other existing kernel extensions still need reduced security.



because I guess pretty soon Apple will force this anyway.

Yes, this is correct, too.


Another advantage of DK: i did not know this until now (switched temporary back to kexts, for some testing purposes): Kext drivers seem not to provide playbacks in Digicheck:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 78#p218678

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: DriverKit driver and Kernel Extension Driver

docdoghouse wrote:

@maggie 33
Your objectiveness and kindness is really disarming. Thanks for your help, i am still not happy with the driver situation. I dont need different drivers "with strenght" I want ONE driver that works! I am sure RME is doin (as allways) their best to handle apples permanently changing software architecture but i still would suggest them to put some informations (or the link to the vid) about the topic in the download section. My anger has probanly to do with the facct that I am hating to be forced to skip running systems and struggling with new stuff nobodys needs or ever asked for. Regarding the Integra Editor, i still have some hope, on one of roland websites they say the editor for silicon is "under testing". Heck, they still sell the Integra as an actuell product. I never used Rosetta in my DAW computer because i want a "clean" system, whatever....

A bit OT, but I hope you get that update from Roland, but Roland is sadly not known for good product support. I am still waiting for the once promised Roland V-Synth USB driver update. But with no news in the last 15 years I am pretty sure Roland screwed me on that one.