1 (edited by ASauer 2024-01-29 13:35:39)

Topic: Bug Listenback: Dim in Options > Settings does not seem to work

TMFX v 1.93 MacOS (3)
RME Thunderbolt Settings Firmware: v112, Driver: v1.05
Fireface UFX+ (23919669) (the old hardware version, I guess: SW Version: 55, Active Nodes: 105
Mac OSX 12.7.2 (Monterey)

Talkback and Listenback do both work.
I can set how much I would like to dim the audio in my headphone by setting Dim under Talkback in Options > Settings... under the tab General.
I can hear Listenback over the Main Out as well if I press the Talkback button in the settings next to Main Out.

But I can't set how much I would like to dim the audio for Listenback in Options > Settings...: tab General: under Listenback with the Dim slider.
The Audio Level in Main Out stays the same, whatever I set this Dim slider to.
What I can do, is set this level with the Dim Slider under Talkback.
I guess that is a bug.
If not, I'd like to hear what the Dim slider under Listenback is supposed to do!

Best regards,

Arthur Sauer

2

Re: Bug Listenback: Dim in Options > Settings does not seem to work

It seems you got it backwards and didn't test the second dim function.

The Dim slider under Talkback dims all signals except Talkback on the Phones output (the channels assigned to Phones).

The Dim slider under Listenback dims all signals except Listenback on the Mains output (the c hannels assigned to Mains).

See manual, chapter 25.8.1, Mixer Page.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Bug Listenback: Dim in Options > Settings does not seem to work

Thanks for confirming the function of the Dim Slider under Listenback in the Settings... dialog.

MC: See manual, chapter 25.8.1, Mixer Page.

I've read the manual from start to finish... and maybe twice or more with regard to this chapter...

MC: The Dim slider under Talkback dims all signals except Talkback on the Phones output (the channels assigned to Phones).

I know that, and it works almost like you said, although: you have to select the +Talkback button as well for this to work.
If the +Talkback button is off, you don't hear the talkback signal over the headphones.
This fact is not mentioned in Chapter 25.8.1, in fact, the way it works, the information in the manual is incorrect.
This is what the manual says:

Manual: Dim. Amount of attenuation of the signals routed to the Phones in dB.

Why would there be a +Talkback button on the phones if this is supposed to work like the manual says without further ado?

MC: The Dim slider under Listenback dims all signals except Listenback on the Mains output (the c hannels assigned to Mains).

Maybe what I wrote was not clear:

ASauer: But I can't set how much I would like to dim the audio for Listenback in Options > Settings...: tab General: under Listenback with the Dim slider.
The Audio Level in Main Out stays the same, whatever I set this Dim slider to.

What I mean with

ASauer: The Audio Level in Main Out stays the same

is that, whatever I set the Dim slider under Listenback to, the level of all signals going to Main Out (and I don't mean the Listenback signal, but all other signals than Listenback) stay the same.
So that is a bug, since the slider does not do anything.

There is a way to set the dim level of all signals to Main Out (except of course for the Listenback signal itself), when the Talkback button is pressed, namely via the the Dim Slider under Talkback.
That is not the function of this dim slider, according to the manual, which is wrong anyway, since you also have to select the +Talkback button for the Talkback signal to go anywhere, which, of course, does not exist on the main out...
So that is also part of the bug: the Dim Slider under Talkback does what the Dim Slider under Listenback should do.

The manual should be corrected as well.

So, when you get back from the shows:
- tell me if the manual is wrong;
- test the Dim Slider under Listenback and the effect this slider has on other signals to main out;
- test the Dim Slider under Talkback and the effect this slider has on other signals to main out.
Let me know if you can confirm the bug, or if this is something specific to my situation.

TIA!

4

Re: Bug Listenback: Dim in Options > Settings does not seem to work

Phones is written Phones as it is the Phones found in the Control Room Section, where Talkback functionality is default, and where the additional +Talkback button is on by default.

From your description you work outside the control room section. Or tinkered with the settings and made them fail this way.

The +Talkback button has been added to use Talkback also outside the Control Room Section, that's why it is described in chapter 25.3.1 Settings.

I don't see where the manual is wrong, but I have the impression that you did not fully grasped the working principle here. The Control Room Section is the center of all this, as in real mixing desks, and the channel assigned to be Mains is the one where your studio monitors (not headphone) has to be connected. Phones in CRM is the one the musician uses in the record chamber. If done so everything works as expected, at least over here.

BTW, this whole thing exists in manuals and TM FX for at least 15 years, and has always worked...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Bug Listenback: Dim in Options > Settings does not seem to work

I'm talking about the Phones in the Control Room section as well.
I don't remember if the +Talkback button is on by default, but that would deserve mention in the manual as well, since the +Talkback button is not mentioned at all, and essential for it to work. (I've already quoted the manual.)

So, I do not work outside the control room. I know how it works. I've read the manual. I use TotalMix FX since the FireFace 800 came out (2004?)... So I'm not a newbie. I'm just putting the UFX+ through it paces since I want to use it live to replace an old Yamaha O2R, which has some functionality that is only found in the more expensive Yamaha desks which are too big for my use.

So, I'm sorry that I gave you the impression that I work outside of the Control Room Section, but the +Talkback button might be the reason, since it is also ignored in the manual. (I'm guessing)

I know how a real mixing desk works. I'm 61 years old, and I have been touring live and worked in studios for over 30 years using mixing desks.
Apart from having studied composition, I've also been trained as a sound engineer, quite some time ago (finished in 1988).
So please, stop thinking that I am missing all kinds of obvious things, and check what I have been describing.

My headphones are not connected to Main Out. They are connected to analog out 9-10 and 11-12, which is, I believe the default. The headphone is plugged in on the front of the UFX+ on phones 1.
Phones 1 and Phones 2 reside in the Control Room section the way you described.

My studio monitors are connected to the Main Out, which is analog channel 1-2 on the UFX+, as, I believe, is the default.

I know that the phones are used by the musician in the recording room, but of course I listen to the phones in my mixing room, since I am testing.
Maybe it helps if I explain what the Listenback function is for (so we don't have to discuss that): it is for a microphone in the recording room, that you want to listen to in the mixing room (but could be put to other creative uses as well). It is hardwired to Main Out, since that is where your studio monitors are connected to. So Dim under Listenback should set the balance between all signals routed to Main Out and Listenback, like Dim under Talkback does for the headphones that are in the recording room.

So, hopefully you will try to designate a channel to Listenback, then play with the dim button under Listenback in the Settings... dialog, and see if this makes any difference to the levels of signals routed to Main Out, as described in the manual, and as is to be expected considering what it would have been used for in a studio with a mixing desk.

I am willing to make a screen recording and put a mic in my room, and send that to you, if that will convince you that I know what I am talking about and that the issue I am talking about exists in the real world.
Let me know if that helps, or anything else I can do to bring the issue to the next level, which is, considering it as a real bug report from a person who does thorough testing and knows a bit about mixing desks.
The result might be that I am really missing something. But, it is not one of the issues you mentioned. Stating that it has always worked is denying the existence of regressions in software. It does not sound like you have tested it using the software versions I'm using with a pre-Covid UFX+. I can understand that since you have the feeling that I am confused about the way things work. Hopefully that is out of the way now.

Maybe it is good to know that I'm an alpha/beta tester for some big companies as well... So I have some experience doing that.

I appreciate your help, and I realise that possibilities for miscommunication/misunderstanding via this medium exist, but I think it is time to do some real testing.
If you currently have no opportunity to test this: at the moment I am not pressed for time. So lets proceed when you are back.

Best regards,

Arthur Sauer

6

Re: Bug Listenback: Dim in Options > Settings does not seem to work

I am now able to reproduce this. Will announce news here.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Bug Listenback: Dim in Options > Settings does not seem to work

Thx!