1 Topic by crazybaby (edited by crazybaby 2024-02-16 21:58:13)

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Topic: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

I was streaming music from my iPad through an ADI-2 DAC FS, utilizing the USB as the source and the XLR outputs for connection to a 2-channel power amplifier that drives my left and right floor speakers. The system was further enhanced by adding an SVS SB-1000 powered subwoofer, linked through the left and right RCA analog outputs of the ADI-2 DAC FS. This setup allowed for the subwoofer's filtering and DSP to complement the DAC's PEQ settings, effectively smoothing out a sound null by 15-20dB and significantly improving the audio quality.

After upgrading to an ADI-2/4 PRO SE, mainly for the Pentaconn connector for my Dan Clark Audio Stealth headphones, I faced a connectivity challenge. The new DAC uses 1/4" sockets instead of the RCA connectors, and I currently do not have the required cables to connect my subwoofer. This came after I had decided to declutter by discarding a collection of old audio and video cables.

I am contemplating using the PH 3/4 connection for the subwoofer and potentially adjusting the DAC's PEQ for channels 1/2 for the floor speakers and 3/4 for the subwoofer. However, this might be less than ideal due to the cables protruding from the front, especially when considering the occasional use of the 4.4mm headphone connector. My preference is to replicate the previous setup, and since I have retained the PEQ settings, reinstating the original configuration should be straightforward.

I am seeking advice on the best course of action. Do I need to purchase a few mono 1/4" to RCA cables to connect the 2/4 PRO SE to my subwoofer, or is there a more optimal solution with my existing equipment? Is there a simpler alternative that I might be overlooking?

Thanks in advance and sorry if this is old news again.  I just read the entire manual online and I went page by page of this forum reading any topic that had the word "sub" in it through the first 15 pages or so, and I did not find anything specific to ease my mind and solve my questions; though, I am not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

2 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-02-16 22:37:41)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

This type of adapter will serve you well:

https://www.amazon.com/-/de/sspa/click? … %26psc%3D1

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_849526-T3/images/I/5154z6k-jBL._AC_SX679_.jpg


Personally I don‘t think connecting mains and subs to individual channels is very practical, unless you’re about to constantly readjust sub’s level on purpose.

Volume controls of 1/2 and 3/4 can be linked, but operating ADI-2 the link can easily be broken accidentally.


Treating mains and sub as a complete system on the same channel is much more convenient.
The sub’s built in controls should be sufficient for all tuning purposes.

To eliminate a null in the resulting frequency response when sub’s controls are already optimized, little different sub placement in the room can work wonders.
E.g lifting the sub up a little, and/or turning it round (so that it fires to the wall) already can do the job.

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

I absolutely agree with everything you said, and I also ran across a relatively recent series of posts in another forum site where RME (MC) was talking about this exact situation.  Ordered the adapters and they should be here soon.  This will save me the trouble of having to wiggle around to connect everything. Instead, I can simply use the two RCA cables coming from the subwoofer, since the new DAC is located in the same spot as the old one.

It's not the just the quality of the converter that draws me to RME devices; it's their manuals and support that truly win me over.

I lurk around and you have been extremely helpful over the years.  Your time and patience are greatly appreciated.

4 Reply by MC

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

I second that. Still I have to point out that a photo of these adapters is also found in the 2/4 manual...page 105 and 108.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

Yes, indeed, the manual provided all the necessary information and more. I downloaded the manual because my eyesight is not as good as it used to be, especially with smaller print. As I was scrolling through the pages, I foolishly assumed I had reached the end when I got to the installation sections. Admittedly, I was over-excited and probably a bit overconfident, having had a similar device for over five years. I completely missed the technical reference section.

After settling down a bit and taking a more leisurely perusal of the manual, combined with some discussions found around the internet, I am up to speed now on just about everything I had questions about before.

Thanks!

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

crazybaby wrote:

Yes, indeed, the manual provided all the necessary information and more.

What did you end up doing for connecting your subwoofer?

With my 2/4, i want to avoid having subwoofers and amp on two different DAC channels.
I started looking at XLR splitters.

...for "ease of connecting subwoofer", this makes me miss the simple ADI-2 DAC.

Any pointer on how to connect subwoofer to 2/4 in the most efficient way?

7 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-02-18 10:10:41)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

neotinto wrote:

[With my 2/4, i want to avoid having subwoofers and amp on two different DAC channels.
I started looking at XLR splitters.

...for "ease of connecting subwoofer", this makes me miss the simple ADI-2 DAC.

Any pointer on how to connect subwoofer to 2/4 in the most efficient way?

The primary solution is:

• Run a pair of cables from ADI-2 outs to the sub.
Use sub’s built in low cut filter for the mains, to free the mains from large driver excursion.

• Then run cables from the sub’s dedicated main outs to the main speakers.

The cable type depends on the available connectors of mains and subs.


If your main speakers are big and full range:

• Run 2 pairs of cables from ADI-2 outs to sub and mains directly.
The mains contribute to the bass then, allowing better room coupling.
For this config XLR Y-splitters 1xXLRf to 2xXLRm (*1) are the best option if both mains and subs have balanced XLR inputs.

Instead of the XLR-Y-splitters ADI-2’s individual XLR and the TRS / RCA (depending on ADI-2 model) can be used in any combination that makes sense.

Using balanced interconnects (XLR, TRS) can avoid possible hum and noise problems, but often that’s not a problem anyway.
To take this advantage both sides, outs and ins, need to be balanced.


(*1) https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_849526-T3/images/I/71MWF3TgBZS._SX522_.jpg

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

My floor speakers' frequency response is 32-25kHz +/- 3dB, and the sealed sub is rated at 20-270Hz +/- 3dB. Add another 2-3Hz lower for room size gain. The sub only has RCA or speaker terminals, with no pass-through. I plan to connect it to the TRS output of the ADI-2/4 Pro SE using the adapters provided in @KaiS's first reply.

The sub has an app that I can connect to with my phone via Bluetooth to configure a myriad of settings. Using REW and a calibrated microphone, I was able to reduce a null from my floor speakers with some positioning and the addition of the subwoofer. This is my office, where I am the only person seated in the same spot, so it was not necessary, fortunately, for me to fiddle around with multiple subs or moving furniture. I do have a bunch of sound-damping material on all the walls, but it is too thin to impact the problematic frequencies below 100Hz significantly.

I did not have any issues with ground loop hums before with this configuration using the ADI-2 DAC FS. I connect my source via USB and can always add my Intona USB isolator if it somehow becomes an issue with the new DAC.

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

I have set up two EQ profiles on the ADI DACs: one before acquiring the subwoofer and another after its installation. The subwoofer settings are stored on my phone, and I've transferred the EQ settings from the older ADI DAC to the new one. I intend to take further measurements in the future. At present, the most noticeable difference seems to be in the volume levels, which appear louder at the same reference level and loudness settings. Specifically, the ADI-2 DAC FS, when set to -54 (Auto Ref -5dBu), seemed quieter compared to the new ADI-2/4 DAC PRO SE, even though the latter indicates +1dBU. I'm uncertain if this difference is due to the accurate level being displayed when using balanced XLR connections. Previously, it was necessary to add +6dB to the reading on the older DAC when using XLR connections, a step that might not be needed with the new model.

The setup sounds fantastic, as always. I stream Apple Music through my iPad Mini, which sits perfectly atop my DAC and is magnetically secured with the smart folio cover as if they were made for each other. I opt for the highest quality lossless format available and avoid using the app's volume normalization feature across tracks. This choice leads to significant volume differences when shuffling through my extensive music library of over 50,000 tracks, ranging from modern 44.1kHz 16-bit pop songs with limited dynamic range to 192kHz 24-bit jazz tracks with a much broader dynamic range. Consequently, having volume, bass, and treble controls within easy reach on my desk is particularly beneficial.

10 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-02-18 22:23:22)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

ADI-2 DAC has a different output level than the two ADI-2 Pro versions.

On the Pro’s, XLR and TRS have the same output level, and the dBr value (when Auto Ref Level is on) references to +24 dBu. (*1)

On ADI-2 DAC the XLRs are 6 dB hotter than the RCAs and the dBr value in the display (Auto Ref Level on) refers to the 6 dB lower RCA level of +13 dBu max.


So, for the same dBr value the DAC is 5 dB (XLR) or 11 dB (RCA) quieter than the Pro’s.
This fits to the intended use case - home equipment tends to not being able  take as high levels as pro stuff.


(*1):
For technical reasons the pro versions TRSs can’t output more than ca. +22 dBu, so they do NOT follow the XLRs when Ref Level is switched to +24 dBu.
This leads to a bit strange TRS behavior, when dialing above -5 dBr (+19 dBu) they go down by 4.5 dB.


If you’re now a bit whirly in your head after reading all the figures above, don’t worry, this is normal. smile

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

Previously, when I used the ADI-2 DAC, I activated the Auto Reference Level feature. The display indicated a level of -5 dBu (Auto). However, since I was utilizing the XLR output to connect to my power amplifier, which in turn powered my floor speakers, the actual output level was 6 dB higher, effectively making it +1 dBu. Now, with the Pro model, I've also enabled the Auto Reference Level, and the volume display reads +1 dBu (Auto). I haven't yet connected the subwoofer. Given the variability in volume across different audio tracks and various biases, it's nearly impossible to subjectively assess the overall volume level. Nonetheless, the volume seems to be roughly the same as before, albeit slightly louder.

It seems likely that I'll need to tweak the Digital Signal Processing (DSP) settings with the subwoofer's app and the DAC's PEQ once I integrate the subwoofer. This is because the TRS output will likely differ significantly in volume if I maintain the same setup.

12 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-02-18 23:13:58)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

crazybaby wrote:

It seems likely that I'll need to tweak the Digital Signal Processing (DSP) settings with the subwoofer's app and the DAC's PEQ once I integrate the subwoofer. This is because the TRS output will likely differ significantly in volume if I maintain the same setup.

If you had the subs at the RCA’s and now at the TRSs, simply bring them down by 6 dB.

No other change needed.


Don’t exceed -5 dBr volume dial on the Pro, as the TRSs will switch back by 5 dB then, relative to the XLRs - see above, remark (*1).
Typically you’ll never ever come even close to that level anyway, as it will shake your house down smile

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

KaiS wrote:
crazybaby wrote:

It seems likely that I'll need to tweak the Digital Signal Processing (DSP) settings with the subwoofer's app and the DAC's PEQ once I integrate the subwoofer. This is because the TRS output will likely differ significantly in volume if I maintain the same setup.

If you had the subs at the RCA’s and now at the TRSs, simply bring them down by 6 dB.

No other change needed.


Don’t exceed -5 dBr volume dial on the Pro, as the TRSs will switch back by 5 dB then, relative to the XLRs - see above, remark (*1).
Typically you’ll never ever come even close to that level anyway, as it will shake your house down smile

Thanks again! Yes, I pulled up my DAC's PEQ setting I named "Sub Connected", and then adjusted the subwoofer's main volume setting in the app from -8 to -14 and it seemed right at my regular listening experience.

-5 dBr! Nope! I like my neighbors.

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

KaiS wrote:

For this config XLR Y-splitters 1xXLRf to 2xXLRm (*1) are the best option if both mains and subs have balanced XLR inputs.

(*1) https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_849526-T3/images/I/71MWF3TgBZS._SX522_.jpg

Y splitter of XLR outputs makes signal weaker by [a couple of]db.
It can cause Auto Ref to be off base.
So, with the Y splitter -- looks like I should switch off the Auto Ref function on RME ADI 2/4 Pro?

15 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-02-19 08:41:11)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

neotinto wrote:
KaiS wrote:

For this config XLR Y-splitters 1xXLRf to 2xXLRm (*1) are the best option if both mains and subs have balanced XLR inputs.

(*1) https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/MEDIAX_849526-T3/images/I/71MWF3TgBZS._SX522_.jpg

Y splitter of XLR outputs makes signal weaker by [a couple of]db.
It can cause Auto Ref to be off base.
So, with the Y splitter -- looks like I should switch off the Auto Ref function on RME ADI 2/4 Pro?

I don’t know where this “information” origins from, but it’s not true.

The difference between feeding one input or two depends on the devices feed, but worst case (both destinations 10 kOhm input impedance) it’s just 0.17 dB.

For typical standard destinations (47 kOhm) it’s even less: 0.04 dB.

In both cases simply insignificant, negligible.

Plus: it‘s not related to and does NOT interfere with ADI-2‘s Auto Ref function in any way.

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

KaiS wrote:

I don’t know where this “information” origins from, but it’s not true.

This info came from this Reddit thread, where someone mentioned up to 6db, and others disagreed: https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineeri … lr_ycable/

Thank you for correcting that info.
Following your response = I am happily looking for XLR splitter now smile

Thank you!

17 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-02-20 00:10:25)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

neotinto wrote:
KaiS wrote:

I don’t know where this “information” origins from, but it’s not true.

This info came from this Reddit thread, where someone mentioned up to 6db, and others disagreed: https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineeri … lr_ycable/

Yeah, the net is a great source of misinformation!

All those experts out there who don’t know which side of the soldering iron to hold in the hand… but telling others how to use it smile


The funny thing is, that ChatGBT and other AI’s now start to repeat this …

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18 Reply by raschmo (edited by raschmo 2024-05-08 18:47:15)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

KaiS wrote:

On the Pro’s, XLR and TRS have the same output level, and the dBr value (when Auto Ref Level is on) references to +24 dBu. (*1)

So can you please comment on one of your older posts?
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 12#p155312

To my understanding, if you use an ADI-2/4 PRO SE, it should not be necessary to distinguish between one or two outputs when setting the level on the sub's controls.

Or did I get something wrong?

Kind Regards
Ralf

19 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-05-08 23:55:55)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

raschmo wrote:
KaiS wrote:

On the Pro’s, XLR and TRS have the same output level, and the dBr value (when Auto Ref Level is on) references to +24 dBu. (*1)

So can you please comment on one of your older posts?
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 12#p155312

To my understanding, if you use an ADI-2/4 PRO SE, it should not be necessary to distinguish between one or two outputs when setting the level on the sub's controls.

Or did I get something wrong?

This is a setup guide that offers a little “twist” in the way the main speakers are filtered.

ADI-2/4 Pro SE adds a connection variant, otherwise it’s similar.


Maybe you just tell what you’re after, which exact models of speakers and amps you like to connect to which ADI-2 model.
This would facilate to make a configuration suggestion.

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

My system currently consists of an RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE, a power amplifier and two floorstanding speakers. I recently
connected a subwoofer for fun and was pleased that the sound could be improved a little bit. It was just like that
without any "science", i.e. ADI(XLR)->(XLR)power amplifier(LS)->(HI Level In)subwoofer(Hi Level Out)->speaker. The
subwoofer's instructions state: "The subwoofer's internal crossover only directs the low-frequency signal components to
the subwoofer, whereby the unfiltered signal is available for forwarding at the terminals (HI LEVEL OUT)." Now I would
like to follow your instructions (How to setup ADI-2 DAC or ADI-2 Pro in a setup with main speaker+subwoofer) to get
away from pure experimentation. I bought the software for the iPad especially for this purpose. The plan is to
essentially implement your variant (case 2). However, I have no explanation for the different level settings on the sub
between (case 1) and (case 2), unless one assumes that the two outputs on the RME deliver different levels. That is the
crucial point where I may have misunderstood something. But your recent statement "On the Pro's, XLR and TRS have the same
output level" does not match the assumption made at this point. Could you please clarify this?

Kind Regards
Ralf
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

raschmo wrote:

[EDITED] My system currently consists of

• RME ADI-2/4 Pro SE,
• Power amplifier AVM EVOLUTION SA3.2
• two floorstanding speakers B&W 804 D3
• subwoofer T+A TLW 2 A

ADI(XLR)->
(XLR)power amplifier(LS)->
(HI Level In)subwoofer(Hi Level Out)->
Main speakers.

The subwoofer's instructions state: "The subwoofer's internal crossover only directs the low-frequency signal components to the subwoofer, whereby the unfiltered signal is available for forwarding at the terminals (HI LEVEL OUT)."

Now I would like to follow your instructions (How to setup ADI-2 DAC or ADI-2 Pro in a setup with main speaker+subwoofer) to get
away from pure experimentation.

…The plan is to essentially implement your variant (case 2).

However, I have no explanation for the different level settings on the sub between (case 1) and (case 2), unless one assumes that the two outputs on the RME deliver different levels. …

Let‘s concentrate on (case 1) that is better suited to your setup.

Your cabling already is OK.

A random measurements I found shows, your main speakers are big full-rangers with and a lot of bass-capability, no lack of bass extension, albeit a bit of rolloff:
https://www.stereo.de/hifi-test/produkt/bw-804-d3-1003https://stereotest.nitschkeverlag.de/images/measurement/001003-0.jpg


The idea of (case 1) is:
• To over-fill missing bass of the mains by the sub.
• Then reduce the excess of bass with ADI-2‘s PEQ.
This reduces the bass-load on the main speakers without the need for a complicated 2-way crossover setup inside ADI-2, like in (case 2)

• In your case this general reduction is unnecessary, as your main speakers are very bass capable.

PEQ can still be advantageous, to control room resonances that can‘t be addressed with changes in speaker placement and subwoofer settings.


How to: see next posting.

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22 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-05-09 11:23:33)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

How to setup ADI-2 DAC or ADI-2 Pro in a setup with
main speaker+subwoofer.

(case 1): One output - main/sub on the same ADI-2 DAC / PRO output:

What we need:

• iPhone/iPad with "FFT“ by Andrew Smith, $12 in the Appstore:
https://apps.apple.com/de/app/fft/id298840058
Or, if you like a more coarse view, RTA:
https://apps.apple.com/de/app/rta/id298839433


• Something to place the iDevice in free air at the listener's position, e.g. a photo tripod, a selfiestick, or any stick+tape, or any mount.
Don't lay the iDevice on something big, this would disturb the soundfield around it’s mic.

• Pink noise from any source.
The AudioTools' FFT and RTA have a generator built in.
You can either connect this iDevice, or a 2nd one with the same app (that's what I usually do), or use PinkNoise from a CD or from Youtube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXtimhT-ff4


• In AudioTools FFT / RTA's Setup "Mic Compensation Filter", and "Measurement Mode" should be Enabled.
Set "Output Mode" to "Mono", not "Balanced"!


• Switch OFF the subwoofer.
• Set FFT to Equal Points/Octave, 1/3 Octave smoothing, Average — or RTA to 1/3 Okt., 30s Decay.
• Look at the room noise.
• Play the Pink Noise.
• Dial in a Pink Noise level 15-20dB above room noise.
The average from 100Hz to 1kHz should meet a scale line, as reference line.

• Switch OFF the main speakers, ON the sub.
• On the sub's level control, set the level at: 6 dB above the the FFT’s / RTA's reference line, with sub's x-over frequency try to find a range between 60-110Hz that looks the most linear. Make a pencil marks on the sub‘s controls.

• Now, switch the main speakers ON too, linearize the response by playing with:
- the sub's phase switch,
- the sub's frequency control around the pencil mark,
- and a bit with the sub's room placement if possible.

These are all interactive.

Goal is a slightly, ca. 6 dB, elevated bass and a relatively linear bass response, and no deep gaps in the response.
With a good setting you can counteract room resonances too.
Don't care about higher frequencies at this point.

• For the final touch, use ADI-2‘s PEQ to eliminate the 1 or 2 most positive going room resonances in the bass.
Don‘t try to fill huge gaps in the frequency response, this won‘t sound good.
Those need to be addressed by speaker placement and subwoofer control setting (see above).

Take notes when you found a good setting before trying another.
Listen to music inbetween if you found a good setting.


• Some PEQ bands can be used to fine-tune the upper frequency response of the setup.

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

Thanks for all your advice!

KaiS wrote:

Your cabling already is OK.

Is there any disadvantage using the RCA inputs on the sub connected to the Line Out TRS 1/2 on the RME and connecting the TRS inputs on the amp to Line Out XLR 1/2 on the RME?

KaiS wrote:

...without the need for a complicated 2-way crossover setup inside ADI-2, like in (case 2)

So my misconception was interpreting the "two outputs" in "Two outputs - main/sub on separate ADI-2 PRO outputs" as merely two physical connections XML/TRS on the RME's backplate while you meant output from DAC 1/2 vs. DAC 3/4?

Kind Regards
Ralf

24 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-05-09 14:17:34)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

raschmo wrote:

Thanks for all your advice!

KaiS wrote:

Your cabling already is OK.

Is there any disadvantage using the RCA inputs on the sub connected to the Line Out TRS 1/2 on the RME and connecting the TRS inputs on the amp to Line Out XLR 1/2 on the RME?

KaiS wrote:

...without the need for a complicated 2-way crossover setup inside ADI-2, like in (case 2)

So my misconception was interpreting the "two outputs" in "Two outputs - main/sub on separate ADI-2 PRO outputs" as merely two physical connections XML/TRS on the RME's backplate while you meant output from DAC 1/2 vs. DAC 3/4?

In all cases I‘d connect ADI-2‘s XLR outs to the power amp, to take full advantage of balanced interconnection.

Now you can leave it like you have it, running the sub in the speaker cable loop.
Alternatively you can connect the sub to ADI-2‘s Rear TRS 1/2 outs using fitting adapters or cables TRS or TS to RCA.

The result is more or less the same.
The TRS(TS)-RCA version is a little more prone to hum from possible ground loops.
If that doesn‘t happen at your place you can run it like this.


The (case 2) variant uses ADI-2 Pro / ADI-2/4 Pro SE as a 2-way crossover, occupying channels 1/2 and 3/4, while accepting the resulting complication in usability.
This is for small main speakers without bass capability.


For your setup (case 1) is much better.
A combined bass from 3 sources, 2x main + 1x sub, has much better room acoustics coupling, when tuned right.

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE in Stereo 2.1 Channel Setup

Thanks again,

all my questions are answered now. The rest of today and tomorrow when I took a day off promise to be very entertaining :-)

Kind Regards
Ralf