1 Topic by jefwpowell (edited by jefwpowell 2024-04-07 04:15:30)

  • Registered: 2024-04-07
  • Posts: 4

Topic: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

Hello All,

Longtime RME user, first time poster.

I need some advice on either upgrading or augmenting my current set up.

My desire is to upgrade my conversion (and latency) if possible, and still interface all my outboard gear.

My current setup is a SSL Alpha link Madi SX into an original rev 1 HDSPe. That combo has been rock solid and trouble free for well over a decade.

The SSL interfaces an original Octa Mic and 4 Vintech pres, along with a Bricasti, Evenetide, TC electronic M3000, API 2500 and 5500 and A Designs Hammer before running into a 2400 Audio Imperium monitor controller.

At the time - the SSL was a godsend with the all the analogue and AES i/o, though I have always been suspect of the conversion. (it may be in my head, but it does seem somewhat odd to me in comparison to other converters I have used over the years)

The original rev 1 as you all know, does not allow the Total Mix FX when tracking vocals. That along with the SSL's lessened track/channel count at higher sample rates is why I am considering an upgrade/augment.

My questions are:

Could the UFX 3 replace the SSL (and the original HDSPe) as far as connecting all the out board gear, and give me a little room to grow if I acquire more outboard. And is the conversion on the 3 noticeably better than the SSL?

I assume it is, but these things can be subjective to the point of silliness. Like everyone, I would like the best converters I can afford. Though I don't want to fall victim to my own internal gear acquisition syndrome if splitting hairs is the final result.

Or would I better off getting the ADI pro 2 FS R BE for the conversion to my monitors and keeping the SSL to interface the outboard gear?

Or ... is there a better RME solution to streamline my rig that would allow improved conversion, (and latency) all still allow me to get all my outboard interfaced that I am overlooking?

Any advice, insights, or general comments are greatly appreciated. I am still learning and just reading the forum has been a great help.

Thanks to all in advance.

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-04-07 09:38:39)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,229

Re: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

Hi.

Is there perhaps a drawing of the setup and
a list of how many and what kind of analog and digital ports are required?

You talk e.g. about AES ports on the SSL / in your setup.
Are these ports in use, if so for what, how many of them are needed?

jefwpowell wrote:

Or … is there a better RME solution to streamline my rig that would allow improved conversion, (and latency) all still allow me to get all my outboard interfaced that I am overlooking?

Do you know the converter latency of the SSL product for AD and DA? The newer RME products have a very low converter latency, which is beneficial when working with external hardware.

jefwpowell wrote:

The original rev 1 as you all know, does not allow the Total Mix FX when tracking vocals. That along with the SSL's lessened track/channel count at higher sample rates is why I am considering an upgrade/augment.

You talk about an HDSPe Rev 1 card. There are a lot of RME cards with HDSPe in the name.
What "issue" with TotalMix / tracking vocals?
Which sample rates do you want to use?

jefwpowell wrote:

Could the UFX 3 replace the SSL (and the original HDSPe) as far as connecting all the out board gear, and give me a little room to grow if I acquire more outboard. And is the conversion on the 3 noticeably better than the SSL?

I fear this is difficult to tell without proper A/B comparison. All that I can say is, that RME has an excellent conversion which is "transparent", records and plays the original sound without modifying the signal in any way. See YouTube video about the converter shootout by Marc Einstmann, maybe this clarifies what quality RME devices deliver, in this case the ADI-2 Pro FS.

You find it here in my blog article about the ADI-2 DAC/Pro converter:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/
Direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doHG32aXBDY
In the comment section of the YouTube video, you also find the download link for the original WAV files (as YouTube alters the audio content).

jefwpowell wrote:

Though I don't want to fall victim to my own internal gear acquisition syndrome if splitting hairs is the final result.

There are surely a few possibilities. Therefore, I asked about the concrete port demand, see above.

Regarding budget. What is your budget for this? Is this budget "fix" cut" or "flexible"?
With flexible, I mean, can you spend a little more if there are reasons to spend more.
For example, if you should like the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE's features for your monitoring section?

The ADI-2 Pro can shine in any setup with its very useful features. But you can also buy it later at any time.
The UFX III already has excellent converters, those of the previous model, the ADI-2 Pro FS.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

3 Reply by jefwpowell (edited by jefwpowell 2024-04-07 20:24:32)

  • Registered: 2024-04-07
  • Posts: 4

Re: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

Hello ramses,

Thank you so much for responding. I'll try to explain the best I can as my drawing and cad skills are atrocious.

The SSL has 9 D-sub 25 pin connectors and an optical madi i/o port. It connects to the HDSPe Madi express card (sorry should have been more specific) via the optical port. I believe I bought that card in 2009/2010 - it has been upgraded to the newer software but does not have, or allow the internal effects (eq/delay/reverb) for tracking - or at least that is my understanding.

On the SSL, there are 3 D-subs for analogue ins, 3 D-subs for analogue outs, and 3 D-subs for AES digital i/o - there 24 channels of analogue and 24 channels of digital - but only at 24/48k - higher sample rates halve the track count.

I connect the SSL to the Octa Mic XTC via a D-sub to D-sub on both units.

I connect all the reverbs, the Bricasti m7, the Eventide Orville, the TC electronics M3000 - via AES D-sub from the SSL to XLR style 3 pin AES connectors on those units - it is a break out cable. Each of those units also has analogue i/o as well

The rest, the Vintech pres, the 2 APIs, the A Designs EQ, and the 2400 Audio Imperium monitor controller are all connected to the SSL via analogue D-sub on the SSL to breakout XLR connection on the units.

I don't know the exact latency of the SSL, but I assume it is minimal as I track a lot of virtual instruments and haven't been bothered too much. I generally set the buffer to 64 samples when tracking and 128 0r 256 samples during playback. 

Preferably I would like to mix at 24/96 with the ability to handle the occasional project recorded at 192 or higher - my current rig does not allow that very easily. Though my computer could handle it fairly effortlessly.

The simple truth is: I don't really track more than a few things at a time much anymore as I have transitioned to mostly mixing instead of tracking - I still do the occasional voice and acoustic guitar, or a trio of violin, cello, bass, but it is rare - I mostly mix projects that were recorded elsewhere. So while it would be great to have more pres, it is better for me to have a few excellent channels of AD for the occasional tracking that I do, and at least 2 channels of superior DA for monitoring.

My main goal is to stream line my rig (if that is possible), and improve my conversion while still being able to interface my present gear (or at least some if it). And if a piece comes into my mix room that I cant live without - it would be nice to be able to patch it in without losing something else.

In contrast to that last statement - I know at some point I will likely make the jump to doing every thing in the box... but I am not "there" yet. I use enough VSTs to know that my reverbs are probably used due to my own bias, rather than the actual "quality" they provide ... and if I want want "color" on a pre I can do it with software ... but I still like to twiddle and tweak on the gear, so interfacing it into my rig is still a priority at present - though I am open to suggestion.

My budget is flexible if I can accomplish interfacing at least 16 channels of my present outboard, mix/track at higher sample rates, have several channels of excellent AD/DA and possibly scale down - if there is a box/boxes or a combination of a box and a card - I am wide open to suggestions. The SSL / RME HDSPe express card combo works ... but doesn't allow the modern higher sample rates very easily.

I have a larger studio desk in my mix room that ultimately I would like to get it down to a smaller "mastering style" desk with just 2 racks in front me. I just sold a Shadow Hills Equinox in an effort to go smaller, so ... as I type this ... I realize the 16 port count may be a bit flexible as well if I really want to scale down.

Best
Jef

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-04-07 19:04:09)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,229

Re: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

PC---USB---ARC USB
|       USB-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ USB only for firmware updates and
|PCIe                                                                                                       | remote control using "ADI-2 Remote" SW
|                                                                                                              | mode: AD/DA
HDSPe MADI FX---AES OUT---------------------------->AES IN---ADI-2 Pro FS R BE---AN1/2---Active Monitors
|                       \----AES IN<----------------------------AES OUT---/                            \---AN3/4---Headphones
|
+MADI Bus #1: M-1610 Pro (4x external stereo FX)
+MADI Bus #2: M-1610 Pro (4x external stereo FX)
+MADI Bus #3: Octamic XTC (remote control: MIDI over MADI, using either Auxdevice or new RME connector)

HDSPe MADI FX................ €1439
HDSPe Opto-X...................€  379
ARC USB............................€  159
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE..............€1699
M-1610 Pro.......................€~2500 (currently not deliverable)
M-1610 Pro.......................€~2500 (currently not deliverable)
Octamic XTC......................you have one
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL                  approx.  €8700
==========================================

As an option M32 Pro II AD and M32 Pro II DA, but then double speed as maximum.
At quad speed you could only use 16 of 32 channels.

Instead of using ADI-2 Pro FS R BE you could also think about getting ADI-2/4 Pro SE.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

5 Reply by jefwpowell (edited by jefwpowell 2024-04-07 22:56:00)

  • Registered: 2024-04-07
  • Posts: 4

Re: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

Thank you so much ramses! That list is comprehensive and addresses all my current issues.

Definitely food for thought.

Any clue as to when the M-1610 pro will be back in stock ?

I suppose the worst case is I could upgrade the express card and get one of the ADI pro 2s first, and keep the SSL in my chain until the 1610s are available. That seems it would improve my monitoring D/A right away, give me two really good A/D channels, and still allow my gear to be interfaced until such a time that part of the rig can be updated.

Again thanks - I wasn't aware of the 1610s or even what their application was for - it makes sense. I was more focused on the UFX3 and the ADI pro 2s.

best
Jef

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-04-08 07:36:55)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,229

Re: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

jefwpowell wrote:

Thank you so much ramses! That list is comprehensive and addresses all my current issues.

You're welcome, Jef.

jefwpowell wrote:

Any clue as to when the M-1610 pro will be back in stock ?

Sorry, no, maybe RME can tell you something about it.
I only saw a posting in the forum that somebody else observed the same.

jefwpowell wrote:

I suppose the worst case is I could upgrade the express card and get one of the ADI pro 2s first

Yes, then you can become familiar with this setup. The HDSPe MADI FX card has an AES port, where you can connect the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE directly. Do not forget to order an AES cable (digital cable with 110 Ohm).

How you can set up and integrate the ADI-2 Pro into your environment, you can read here in this blog article.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

I would also order:
— the optional daughter card, HDSPe OPTO-X, to get a 3rd optical MADI port (delivers you best galvanic isolation)
  then you need to open the computer case only one time
— the ARC USB, which you connect to the computer
— AES cable (110 Ohm)

With all the delivery chain problems that we had in the past, and sometimes still have, I would order what's available.

The HDSPe MADI FX is an excellent card and gives you some additional value (also in the current setup) and with the three MADI buses to make it possible to record up to quad speed.
Besides this, the card has a few nice features, like e.g. a special driver, that allocates computer/driver resources dynamically for a group of 8 ports. It is also the only PCIe card with an FX chip.

As a side note, I also wrote a review about the HDSPe MADI FX, you can see the intro in the blog, the full review in the PDF:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … Pro-FS-BE/
PDF for download: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -v1-1-pdf/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-04-08 19:53:26)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,229

Re: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

I have another proposal to you

You could also get some more Octamic XTC from used market.
Each XTC has 4x AES I/O to connect 4 external stereo FX.
With two XTC you could connect 2x4 = 8 external stereo FX =16 channels in total, fits quad speed on one MADI bus.



PC---USB---ARC USB
|       USB-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ USB only for firmware updates and
|PCIe                                                                                                       | remote control using "ADI-2 Remote" SW
|                                                                                                              | mode: AD/DA
HDSPe MADI FX---AES OUT---------------------------->AES IN---ADI-2 Pro FS R BE---AN1/2---Active Monitors
|                       \----AES IN<----------------------------AES OUT---/                            \---AN3/4---Headphones
|
+MADI Bus #1: Octamic XTC#1 (remote control: MIDI over MADI, using either Auxdevice or new RME connector)
+MADI Bus #2: Octamic XTC#2 and #3 for connecting 8 external FX via AES (16ch, also ok for quad speed)
+MADI Bus #3: coax, unused

HDSPe MADI FX................ €1439
HDSPe Opto-X...................€  n/a .. not needed anymore, two optical MADI buses are enough
ARC USB............................€  159
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE..............€1699
Octamic XTC......................you have one
Octamic XTC#2..................from used market, maybe €1500 if you are lucky, but currently I saw higher prices
Octamic XTC#3..................from used market, maybe €1500 if you are lucky, but currently I saw higher prices
=======================================================
TOTAL                   approx. €6300 - 6500

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2024-04-07
  • Posts: 4

Re: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

Wow. That is great info ramses. Thank you. 

Being somewhat "old school", very often I am simply not aware of what can be achieved with a lot the newer gear. It's easy to get over loaded with options when you are still learning how everything works - so I really do appreciate the information and guidance you are providing, it helps take a lot of the guess work out of the decision making for me.

Thank you again my friend, you are a wealth of useful information

best
Jef

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,229

Re: Advice on upgrade from SLL Alpha Link/HDSPe to RME Converter/Interface

You need to look what fits best.
Maybe a combination of M-1610 to be able to connect some external devices analog or e.g. using XTC for doing that via AES.
You need to look what fits better for your setup.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14