1 (edited by eobet 2024-07-24 17:29:39)

Topic: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

I have a ADI-2 Pro AE and I'm looking to get a PCIE card with coax/aes... but I'm curious as to why there's doesn't seem to be a straight up DE-9 to DE-9 connector cable (because that's what it looks like), but rather only very unwieldly breakout cables. What am I missing?

2 (edited by ramses 2024-07-24 17:33:29)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

The XLR connector is simply the standard plug for AES cabling. The DB-9 connectors are used to attach and screw down break-out cables. If you know the pin assignment, you can probably put something together yourself.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

Ok, but surely RME knows the pin assignment since they make both products. Why haven't they done a for purpose cable already?

4 (edited by ramses 2024-07-24 18:04:20)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

eobet wrote:

Ok, but surely RME knows the pin assignment since they make both products.

You should read the manual.
At least in the manual for ADI-2 Pro FS R BE the pin assignment is documented. Ch 22.2 SPDIF ..

eobet wrote:

Why haven't they done a for purpose cable already?

I assume because the breakout cable is part of the delivery for both products and then everybody can use standard AES cables. I read up to around 100 m you can even use the 75 Ohm cables for Mics.

Small purchase quantities would make such special products pricier. It is therefore more advantageous for customers to use the breakout cables with those AES Standard (or Mic) cables which are available "everywhere".

Besides this, I think something additional would make such a solution not so "smart".
Some break-out cables also offer additional I/O plugs, they also need to be available/useable.
So you would need different cables with different combinations of plugs on one or two sides.
This would further complicate everything and make it even pricier because then only fewer people will buy those products.

BTW … I have been reading this forum regular for years, and this is the 1st request in that regard that I can remember.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

5 (edited by vinark 2024-07-24 18:36:16)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

If you want uncluttered and simple, why not optical or USB? There is no difference! And why a PCIe card?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

ramses wrote:

You should read the manual.
At least in the manual for ADI-2 Pro FS R BE the pin assignment is documented. Ch 22.2 SPDIF ..

Thank you, and the manual for HDSPe pcie card also has them: https://rme-audio.de/downloads/hdspeaio_e.pdf

Guess I can now comission someone to make me a cable.

vinark wrote:

If you want uncluttered and simple, why not optical or USB? There is no difference! And why a PCIe card?

Well, I don't have the FS version of the ADI-2 Pro, so I've been told this was a good alternative to get less jitter amongst other things.

7 (edited by ramses 2024-07-24 19:58:45)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

Years ago, when the ADI-2 DAC FS was the 1st unit released with FS clock, there was a discussion in this forum, whether FS clock would lead to audible better sound. The final agreement was, that SNR and jitter suppression is measurable better, but not audible.

Getting a PCIe card with TotalMix FX could give you some flexibility in terms of routing, but is not really required if you do not need it.

But if you get such a card, for whatever reason, then I would use a TOSLINK connection, as vinark wrote.

Simple and straightforward. You can plug them directly between the devices, you can perform clock synchronization over any digital connection. There is no better or worse quality, it's simply a digital connection which also provides galvanic isolation like (as good as every) AES implementation does.

Otherwise, use USB. Keep it simple!
Hint: if somebody - maybe from another forum — would tell you that an "audiophile USB cable" is needed .. this is pure nonsense, save the money. This is also digital transmission of audio data over USB. I can recommend you Lindy cables, which have an excellent price / quality ratio. Up to 5 m is possible using USB2. Do not spend more than €15-25.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

eobet wrote:

Well, I don't have the FS version of the ADI-2 Pro, so I've been told this was a good alternative to get less jitter amongst other things.

Oh boy. Can you really hear it? Or do you need to sync the ADI-2 to a poorly performing external clock so the jitter causes sync issues? Besides, the USB input is asynchronous, so there is no jitter to get bothered about in the first place.

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

Thank you both for the information!

Saw the information about the clock in the HDSPe AIO so I will probably go with that and toslink instead then, to avoid the breakout cable and seems I can explore many other options with that as well.

10 (edited by ramses 2024-07-24 21:15:35)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

eobet wrote:

Thank you both for the information!

Saw the information about the clock in the HDSPe AIO so I will probably go with that and toslink instead then, to avoid the breakout cable and seems I can explore many other options with that as well.

I think you mean the HDSPe AIO Pro, this is the one with FS clock.
This card has BTW the same converter as the ADI-2 Pro AE, AK4490, see product page and this overview.
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 06#p165706

With the ADI-2 Pro AE, you will have a richer feature set (dynamic loudness, auto reflevel, state overview, selectable D/A filter, Bit test, PEQ .. and the nice remote (ADI-2 Remote) software.
See also my blog: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

And here about the integration in your setup with the PCIe recording interface (with TM FX):
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

11 (edited by ramses 2024-07-25 06:45:05)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

[ EDIT: in clarification with RME ]

I forgot to mention one thing.

The design of the ADI-2 DAC / Pro FS device series is special.

Even if the device is configured as a clock slave, the final D/A conversion is done with its internal non-FS clock.

This means that operating the ADI-2 Pro as slave to a master with FS clock will bring you no benefit.
If you don't need the HDSPe AIO Pro for other purposes (TM FX, routing), better save the money.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

12 (edited by eobet 2024-07-24 22:45:35)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

Thanks again for the additional information, it's very interesting to learn about this!

I might get the pcie card anyway, if only because I have many devices hooked up to my PC, including a switching USB hub which enables me to move the keyboard and other input devices to a second PC at the touch of a button... but, well, if I do that too often it sometimes resets the USB on my main PC (occasionally to such a degree that I have to reboot with a Windows install media USB to "wake it up" again), so hopefully that will offer me a greater sense of security and stability.

13 (edited by ramses 2024-07-25 07:23:32)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

eobet wrote:

Thanks again for the additional information, it's very interesting to learn about this!

I might get the pcie card anyway, if only because I have many devices hooked up to my PC, including a switching USB hub which enables me to move the keyboard and other input devices to a second PC at the touch of a button... but, well, if I do that too often it sometimes resets the USB on my main PC (occasionally to such a degree that I have to reboot with a Windows install media USB to "wake it up" again), so hopefully that will offer me a greater sense of security and stability.

I'm just clarifying something with RME about D/A conversion in post #11.

Regarding your PC. That the PC doesn't boot and needs an USB install media to boot is strange.

Questioning myself what would be different or how could a RME PCIe based recording interface "cure" this?
If the PC is so hung up that all input devices not work, is your expectation, that at least music continues to run
through HDSPe AIO PCIe card and further to  ADI-2 Pro AE via AES or ADAT?

If the PC is not reacting to mouse or keyboard activity, the 1st action I would do is to reboot and fix it.
So I am really questioning what benefits you would have with a PCIe card.

Maybe a better solution is, to buy a dedicated PCIe USB3 card to connect only the ADI-2 Pro AE,
then the ADI-2 Pro AE is fully separated from the other USB infrastructure.
A good card with a good USB3 chipset (fully compatible to USB2) that is even known to work very well
with UFX III would only cost around €50 and is maybe worth a try.
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html

Windows 10 and 11 have drivers for this card included. The driver work with the more efficient MSI (message signalling) interrupt model.

To avoid misunderstandings about your setup, could you kindly post a diagram of your setup with the two PCs the switcher and how ADI-2 Pro AE and other external devices are connected to each other?
A little ASCI drawing which is quickly done in the editor here, like this for example: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 48#p216648

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

And FYI, adat and optical spdif suffer less from possible jitter then electrical like aes, because there is no chance of electrical interference and impedance mismatches and ground loops.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

15 (edited by KaiS 2024-07-25 07:55:45)

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

ramses wrote:

…everybody can use standard AES cables. I read up to around 100 m you can even use the 75 Ohm cables for Mics.

Small purchase quantities would make such special products pricier. It is therefore more advantageous for customers to use the breakout cables with those AES Standard (or Mic) cables which are available "everywhere".

Mic cables don‘t have an exactly defined “Wellenwiederstand” / HF impedance, but for sure nowhere close to 75 Ohm.

Most balanced mic cables are in the 110 Ohm area, that’s the reason why this HF impedance was selected in the AES standard, and why analog mic cables typically work flawless as digital AES even at greater distance.


EXPLANATION:

Wellenwiederstand / HF impedance has nothing to do with DC / audio frequency resistance.

The effect of the HF impedance comes into play only if the transmitted frequency is high enough to form a “wave” inside the cable, for a 5 m cable i.e. that would be at ca. 10 MHz (10 Mega-Herz).

If the impedances of sender, cable and receiver are not matching, energy is reflected at the connection points, which can disturb transmission, if too strong.
Digital transmission can, up to a certain point, handle this disturbance, so a little HF impedance mismatch usually doesn’t hurt.


For analog audio frequencies HF impedance is of no concern, as no wave can build up in an interconnect cable.
Only exception: long distance overland telephone lines, where the reflection can create audible echoes.

Re: What pcie card/cable to get if you want to avoid breakout cables?

KaiS wrote:
ramses wrote:

…everybody can use standard AES cables. I read up to around 100 m you can even use the 75 Ohm cables for Mics.

Small purchase quantities would make such special products pricier. It is therefore more advantageous for customers to use the breakout cables with those AES Standard (or Mic) cables which are available "everywhere".

Mic cables don‘t have an exactly defined “Wellenwiederstand” / HF impedance, but for sure nowhere close to 75 Ohm.

Most balanced mic cables are in the 110 Ohm area, that’s the reason why this HF impedance was selected in the AES standard, and why analog mic cables typically work flawless as digital AES even at greater distance.

Ah, then that was wrong in my info source (google) or I looked wrong, thanks for clarification.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14