1 (edited by ignaciogomezgutierrez 2024-07-11 15:42:45)

Topic: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Hi
I have a nice Babyface pro FS (latest version of drivers (driverkit)  and firmware, macOS sonoma, Logic pro 11.0.1) connected to a M1 macbook Air.
I am experiencing a lot of issues: overload warnings with simple projects, MID SYNC drops, crackes and not fluent playing back.
I tried to fine tune Logic, increasing buffer size,and assigning all cores to logic.
It helps for some seconds but then meters start to build up like crazy and I suddently get the overload pop up messsage.
Surpringsinly, all those issues dissappear if I disconnect the babyface from the computer and use mac's headphone output. 
I used to have a midi keyboard connected to a hub alongside with the babyface but ended up giving the babyface its own mac port.
I searched around the forum and learnt that these issues happen to some other users from time to time, but have not been able to figure out the solution.
Thanks!

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Any idea/ suggestion?

Thanks!

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

I have similiar issues using my BF Pro on M1 Max - Sonomoa 14.6.1 - with firmware 320 and driver v4.1.4 - but using Ableton. CPU is continually spiking and creating pops and stutters. This affects also Youtube and Spotify.

If I switch to the macbook pro internal audio there are no problems and also CPU usage drops form around 32%(+ spikes every 5-10s) to 22% (and no spikes) in a medium/large project

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

The difference might be that BF Pro has more channels to handle, comparing to internal audio. BF Pro has 4/4 analogs and 8/8 ADAT digitals. That is several times more comparing to internal audio.

And look at current thread about Logic and FF UCX II. There are two hints by MC.

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Kubrak wrote:

The difference might be that BF Pro has more channels to handle, comparing to internal audio. BF Pro has 4/4 analogs and 8/8 ADAT digitals. That is several times more comparing to internal audio.

And look at current thread about Logic and FF UCX II. There are two hints by MC.


I have checked it out. I will have to have a test next week when I'm back at my main desk with a UFX III. If the same session (on same laptop) behaves differently.

6 (edited by kd 2024-09-01 01:10:40)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

ignaciogomezgutierrez wrote:

Any idea/ suggestion?

Thanks!


Apple you also have to consider that the throughput of RAM, cache etc. is much lower on the cheaper devices like AIR, because often only half the data throughput.
Air M1 I can't even record micro properly, goes well for a few seconds and then stutters.
Definitely hardware too weak .  You could try reducing the recording bit depth to 16.
M3 Pro works great, but M1 Air, the hardware is too weak.

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

kd wrote:
ignaciogomezgutierrez wrote:

Any idea/ suggestion?

Thanks!


Apple you also have to consider that the throughput of RAM, cache etc. is much lower on the cheaper devices like AIR, because often only half the data throughput.
Air M1 I can't even record micro properly, goes well for a few seconds and then stutters.
Definitely hardware too weak .  You could try reducing the recording bit depth to 16.
M3 Pro works great, but M1 Air, the hardware is too weak.

No sorry, definitely not. Things like 24bit multitrack recording, usage of midi equipment, virtual instruments, mix of midi and audio tracks in a DAW, effect plugins and so on … are possible since many years. I still have such Logic projects created on a 2002 Powerbook G4 (867MHz with 1GB RAM) in combination with different firewire interfaces (also RME Fireface 400 with additional 8ch ADAT preamps). Today’s hardware can do this with ease!

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

yeshuah wrote:
Kubrak wrote:

The difference might be that BF Pro has more channels to handle, comparing to internal audio. BF Pro has 4/4 analogs and 8/8 ADAT digitals. That is several times more comparing to internal audio.

And look at current thread about Logic and FF UCX II. There are two hints by MC.


I have checked it out. I will have to have a test next week when I'm back at my main desk with a UFX III. If the same session (on same laptop) behaves differently.

I managed to check now on my UFX III and have simliar problems. Limiting the channel count to 8 in the Fireface USB settings seems to help a bit. Still very dissapointing to have these kind of issues (regardlesss of the issue being with the OS or RME)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

You missed the point. Using UFX III should give you worse results, than using BF Pro, if the cause is the count of channels interface has. But you have to use UFX III in USB2 mode, not USB3.

But either way, the core of your problem will most probably be either in computer setup, plugins used, or like....

10 (edited by yeshuah 2024-09-03 21:32:59)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Kubrak wrote:

You missed the point. Using UFX III should give you worse results, than using BF Pro, if the cause is the count of channels interface has. But you have to use UFX III in USB2 mode, not USB3.

But either way, the core of your problem will most probably be either in computer setup, plugins used, or like....

Yes, I was just confirming that it wasn't isolated to the Babyface.

And the whole point of having a UFX III (or even just a Babyface using ADAT) is to utilize the available channels - so it's not really a proper solution to reduce the channel count artificially.

In the current project I have 26 tracks. I rendered them all and imported into a new Ableton project and they play with no cpu spikes. So indicates even more some plugin issue. Going through there is no one plugin that is creating the issue.

As mentioned before when running directly on the bult in audio of the macbook pro then there are a lot less issues. So some combination of too many heavy plugins and reduced performance when using the external interface

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

You cannot reduce amount of channels, IMHO. Maybe you can limit the number of channels that are seen in SW. (At least it is so on Win).

Yes, you may run on very limit what your computer may handle, if using internal audio. Adding just few channels may be just too much for reliable work.

If you have full glass, just few drops make it overflow.....

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Hi! update
I installed driver version 4.14 and things seem to have improved a lot. Not sure if it has to do with it.
The M1 mac is capable for everything, mine has 16 gb of ram and performs every task smoothly, even video.
It seems (as it doesn't have fans) to be sensible to high temps. I do not think it throttles but I can notice lower performace on hot summer days in spain if I am using it in a not conditioned room. But I do not think this has to do with the problems I was refering to in this thread.

13 (edited by ignaciogomezgutierrez 2024-09-05 09:31:27)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

This computer is 100% dedicated to audio recording/mixing, has lot of spare internal HD space, and I have a tb4 ssd drive that holds logic library and samples. So I'd say it's a very clean setup.
With regards to plugins, yes, old plugins and heavy load mastering ones do increase processors % but only if I set the oversampling up to 32x, again, the computer is capable enough for audio.
I have also noticed that from time to time, Arturia synths causes the quick peak to overlao ramdomly.
I will post if the driver update was the solution!

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Kubrak wrote:

You cannot reduce amount of channels, IMHO. Maybe you can limit the number of channels that are seen in SW. (At least it is so on Win).

Yes, you may run on very limit what your computer may handle, if using internal audio. Adding just few channels may be just too much for reliable work.

If you have full glass, just few drops make it overflow.....

This is a fully loaded M1 Max which handles everything else without problem. The problem is def not resources but bad interactions between OSX audio subsystem and the RME drivers. Even with no plugins loaded and no tracks I can have skipping audio from the audio interface with both Ableton and Youtube or Spotify open.

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Did you update the drivers ?
RME published new driver 4.16 last week...

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

A M1 should easily handle everything, in general.
Regardless if it’s an MB Air or MB Pro or whatever.

What i can say from own experience - check the USB connection:
- Try without any docking stations/converters/hubs etc first. Plug the unit directly to it’s own usb/tb port on the mac.
- Make sure the usb cable is 100% ok .
- Look in the Control App if you see any CRC Errors while you have dropouts.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

maggie33 wrote:

A M1 should easily handle everything, in general.
Regardless if it’s an MB Air or MB Pro or whatever.

What i can say from own experience - check the USB connection:
- Try without any docking stations/converters/hubs etc first. Plug the unit directly to it’s own usb/tb port on the mac.
- Make sure the usb cable is 100% ok .
- Look in the Control App if you see any CRC Errors while you have dropouts.

Which control app?

18

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Settings dialog.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Thanks MC.
I have to correct myself, too: I am not sure, if the CRC Errors are shown in the Settings Dialog/App for BF Pro FS.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

20

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

On Mac USB errors are only shown for USB 3 devices, so no.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Still same problems - even small dropouts without any daw running - just from soundcloud in the browser etc. Even tried installing the kernel extension drivers instead.

Getting a new mac mini friday - interesting if the problem persists here - or if resolved it calls for full formatting and re-install of my MBP

22 (edited by ignaciogomezgutierrez 2024-11-13 12:22:38)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

In my case, I figured out that Analog Lab V plugin  from Arturia as well as BFD3 plugins are causing the majority of my issues.
Mainly AL5 which makes my m1 mac spike like crazy.

Problem with these plugin developers is that they push and push us to increase our computational cap by acquiring more powerful (and expensive) machines instead on working on software optimisation.

I recognise the quality of AL5 but comparing it with Logic stock synths the difference in CPU load is not justified IMO

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

OFFTOPIC.

ignaciogomezgutierrez wrote:

Mainly AL5 which makes my m1 mac spike like crazy.

Problem with these plugin developers is that they push and push us to increase our computational cap by acquiring more powerful (and expensive) machines instead on working on software optimisation.

I recognise the quality of AL5 but comparing it with Logic stock synths the difference in CPU load is not justified IMO

There is "golden rule" last 5% of improvement to "perfection" requires more resources than first 95% has needed. The same applies, more or less, to SW (plugins). Since certain limit every improvement needs much more CPU and so on. Not just little bit more, but double, quadruple, ... more.

And concerning M1. While dropouts may be caused by extensive CPU use, they may as well be caused by extensive RAM use. Certain M1 systems have rather low amount of RAM. In that case virtual RAM (swapping RAM content to SSD) may be used quite a lot and that may cause dropouts as CPU has to wait for data, that should be in RAM, but are on SSD, too long. IMHO occasional big spikes (causing dropouts) might be caused exactly by insufficient RAM size for given task.

24 (edited by ignaciogomezgutierrez 2024-11-13 14:02:55)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Far from being an expert I chose a 16Gb model to avoid the constraints you mention. I need to say that using final cut pro, the system is very capable (despite temperature increase, but that's another story) and quite impressive, also using plugins.
As other users mention, music production should be kind of a piece of cake for these modern machines. I used to record and mix at 96/48 15 years ago, but as cpu capacity was way more limiting, I tend to think that developers would be more innovative on releasing well optimised software.
Reading around, it seems that AL5 is crazy cpu load intensive. I am suspicious on the optimisation as only one core causes the system to crash, while the others are barely at 10%. But this is probably for other forums.

25 (edited by Kubrak 2024-11-13 15:36:24)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

16 GB RAM is not that much, but it depends, what plugins one uses. E.g. one Kontakt sampled library, say violin, may easily take 5 GB of RAM. And one may need to use also other instruments of similar size.... With 3 of them one would run out of RAM. And do not forget that on M1 RAM is shared between CPU and GPU... GPU may take up to 8 GB out of 16 GB.....

It may be that AL5 cannot be made multi threaded, or it is multithreaded, but DAW puts all AL5 threads to one core. M1 has only four big cores anyway, so there probably is not much choise to allocate threads to....

But sure, it may be that developers have not done much optimization. The thing is that developers usually have strong computers and if SW runs fine on a bit worse HW, they do not see much reasons to invest in optimizations, if they are possible.

Another aspect is that optimisation beside cost also means that code is more complex, harder to understand and maintain. It is easier to introduce hard to find bugs, much harder to debug and so... And because of this it is not just one time investment, but it increases development and maintenace cost across the whole life of product....

And M1 is low end HW for music production from today's perspective, so no wonder certain plugins hit its limits. And also IMHO big.little may cause problems, if not handled by SW with care. (Intel has introduced big.little to Win few years ago and is going to leave it as it may cause various problems. AMD has started using big.little in certain models of current CPUs, but their little is just big with reduced cache, so it is slower, but not much slower than big, but it needs much less silicon).

26 (edited by ignaciogomezgutierrez 2024-11-13 16:48:27)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

Interesting! Thanks.
I am indeed checking how the multi core option in AL5 works. I guess there's something I am not understanding / doing correctly because it doesn't seem to help on cpu load when activated.

I wish ALL devevelopers let me choose having 95% of the tone vs healthy CPU load. (some do, and I love it)
OTOH, freezing the track also helps me taking decisions on the production process...:)

As you state, with my humble M1, I can run an insane number of tracks fully loaded with sophisticated plugins with no issues.
The ones that are RAM demaning (instruments) are indeed the ones that cause more problems, so you are probably right and it's my system's bottleneck.

I started this thread because I noticed things improve a lot when my babyface pro FS is not plugged in. I assume it's because of the "complexity" handling vs output jack....and probably also because the ammount of RAM asigned to manage those complexities (more channels, etc)

27 (edited by Kubrak 2024-11-13 17:59:45)

Re: BabyFace pro FS issues (overloads, MIDI sync, pops.) With Logic Pro...

I am not on Mac, so do not have any practical experience. I have seen a review comparing different DAWs on Mac and mainly how well or not so well they handle distributing load to cores. I cannot find it, but I remember, that there were significant differences.

So, maybe different DAW would behave better.

M1 is fine for many workloads... But still, it is not even lower mainstream.

Have a look, if your problems are not more related to RAM use. Mind that open web browser with few open tabs may bite quite a lot of RAM. And even if one closes it, it may run on background (at least on Win on has to setup most of browsers to really close when one closes it.)

Another field of testing might be, try to run DAW/plugins only on performance cores. I do not know, if user may do so on Mac. It is possible on Win using third party app. Maybe that user cannot set such things on Mac.