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Topic: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Good evening.

I am a user of the ADI-2/4 PRO SE DAC in a home HIFI audio installation.
I am very satisfied with its performance.
It is connected with an AUDIOQUEST DIAMOND USB A-B cable to a MAC-MINI. The MAC-MINI receives a fiber optic signal from a commercial router from the telephone company.

A friend of mine is insisting that I should investigate including an element in this chain that improves the synchronization and cleanliness of the audio signal that reaches the DAC.
He has spoken to me about audiophile switches, also about external reclockers, DDC converters, etc.
According to him, the weak point of my chain is using a USB connection between the MAC-MINI and the DAC because he considers that this connection is not audiophile and could lead to various problems that the DAC cannot solve.

On the other hand, there is another friend who recommends that I continue as I have been. This person is the one who recommended that I buy this DAC. According to him, the technology incorporated in this DAC is so good that it does not need external help to purify and re-clock the signal

In short, as experts that you are, I am going to need your advice on this matter.
If you think I can improve the final audio by adding some component, I am willing to listen to your suggestions.

Thank you very much in advance for your help.

Greetings.

2 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2024-09-21 23:35:23)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

dgpuentes wrote:

A friend of mine is insisting that I should investigate including an element in this chain that improves the synchronization and cleanliness of the audio signal that reaches the DAC.
He has spoken to me about audiophile switches, also about external reclockers, DDC converters, etc.
According to him, the weak point of my chain is using a USB connection between the MAC-MINI and the DAC because he considers that this connection is not audiophile and could lead to various problems that the DAC cannot solve.

What problems would this be ? Just being curious about this.


dgpuentes wrote:

On the other hand, there is another friend who recommends that I continue as I have been. This person is the one who recommended that I buy this DAC. According to him, the technology incorporated in this DAC is so good that it does not need external help to purify and re-clock the signal

Exactly, and when you study all infos about RME steady-clock you will find out quickly why this is true.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

3 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-09-22 00:07:12)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

dgpuentes wrote:

Good evening.

Same to you.

With the Bit test you can validate a lossless audio chain from the source (player) up to the DSP of the ADI-2/4 Pro SE shortly before the D/A conversion takes place. Better than lossless transfer of digital audio data is not possible. You can download the short test files from RME which are free of charge, see manual. Take care to use a driver which supports lossless transfer (ASIO, WASAPI in exclusive mode). Validate that the volume of the player is set to 100%. MusicBee is a good player which supports even ASIO and a plugin that locks the volume at 100% at the player.

RMEs proven SteadyClock FS technology takes care to remove any potential jitter efficiently.
The digital audio data is finally D/A converted using a clock signal from the internal FS clock.
More information about SteadyClock FS here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti0aHW-zYcs

Regarding USB cables. You do not need more than a standard USB cable. Any "non-broken" USB2 cable will do.
I would only advise to use one which has solid plugs.
Lindy cables offer a good price / quality ratio: https://www.lindy.de/3m-USB-2-0-Typ-A-a … ;ci=800501

If you like, you can also take a look at my blog article about the reference converter. Maybe the one or other information might be of interest. https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

In the attachments you can also find an Excel showing you the benefits of the auto ref level feature.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … v004-xlsx/

Enjoy your fine reference converter.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

4 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-09-22 01:24:48)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

dgpuentes wrote:

… A friend of mine is insisting that I should investigate including an element in this chain that improves the synchronization and cleanliness of the audio signal that reaches the DAC.
He has spoken to me about audiophile switches, also about external reclockers, DDC converters, etc.
According to him, the weak point of my chain is using a USB connection between the MAC-MINI and the DAC because he considers that this connection is not audiophile and could lead to various problems that the DAC cannot solve.….

The weak point of all these purification device is, their effect doesn’t survive transfer through a digital cable, be it Optical, Coax, AES balanced or USB.

All transfer introduces it’s own jitter, that’s the bottleneck.


So IMO, it’s better to rely on the extremely advanced signal purification built into ADI-2, which happens exactly where it’s needed.

The claim that a DAC “cannot solve this” is (sorry to say) stupid– why should that be if the extra purifiers can?
It’s either technologically possible or not.

ADI-2 has proven it is, all documented in the manual.


The term “audiophile” BTW, unfortunately has depraved these day to a money making industry that sells a lot of very expensive snake oil, and it’s not too easy to find the (existing) true gems in between.
It’s not a market of knowledge, but believe, with believe-leaders and their disciples.

KaiS's Website

5 Reply by Kubrak (edited by Kubrak 2024-09-22 12:45:15)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

I do not suggest that, but slight improvement, measurable, but not hearable. would be better power source. RME has started to sell two models quite recently, but even MC from RME says, that while improvement is measurable, it is not hearable.

Another thing what one might change is to connect interface using optital and skip USB entirely. And avoid possible ground loops and like. Using optical would make devices galvanically separate. Something like RME Digiface USB would do the trick.

But as you do not have problems, you do not need it, really.

Better to "invest" to loudspeakers, and mainly room treatment. The room is mostly the weakest point in audiochain.

FF UCX II, Digiface USB, Babyface Pro FS
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Kubrak wrote:

I do not suggest that, but slight improvement, measurable, but not hearable. would be better power source. RME has started to sell two models quite recently, but even MC from RME says, that while improvement is measurable, it is not hearable.

Another thing what one might change is to connect interface using optital and skip USB entirely. And avoid possible ground loops and like. Using optical would make devices galvanically separate. Something like RME Digiface USB would do the trick.

But as you do not have problems, you do not need it, really.

Better to "invest" to loudspeakers, and mainly room treatment. The room is mostly the weakest point in audiochain.

If you want to expand your world you should get a RME interface with full TMfx like UCXII. Highly recomended! Its somewhat the same sound, but functionality is just another level. For my taste ADI series doesnt have enough analog I/O to be a hub in the system. With UCXII and ADI2-Pro fsr be combo this isnt a question anymore. I just have the best of both worlds. ADI sound, TMfx control + more I/O. And better. Recent firmware added 9 band EQ and crossfeed. TMfx is easy to learn to, I have no bacground in music making. If you are interested in building such a digital system you should check out RME pages and important: DL and read some manuals for understanding of these products.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Yes. one could expand system in many ways. RME UCX II would be good choise.

But IMHO OP's question was about improving sound of what he has, not expanding it....

Sidenote. DF USB has also TM FX (but no DSP effects) and one may connect whatever will need in future. It has four in/out ADATs. I have connected two digital effect units and Octamic II.

FF UCX II, Digiface USB, Babyface Pro FS

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-09-22 14:07:18)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Kubrak wrote:

I do not suggest that, but slight improvement, measurable, but not hearable. would be better power source. RME has started to sell two models quite recently, but even MC from RME says, that while improvement is measurable, it is not hearable.

Another thing what one might change is to connect interface using optital and skip USB entirely. And avoid possible ground loops and like. Using optical would make devices galvanically separate. Something like RME Digiface USB would do the trick.

But as you do not have problems, you do not need it, really.

Better to "invest" to loudspeakers, and mainly room treatment. The room is mostly the weakest point in audiochain.

You can also keep it simple, if you hear no noise, there is no noise.
No reason to overreact on any potential issue that might exist in the world, but which you do not have.

On the other hand, if you like to have a very high-quality power source, go with the RME product offering.
Makes at least more sense to me than paying over €500 for a USB cable, which is really wasted money / snake oil.
If you bought it for the optic … fair enough. Technically, it brings no advantages for the digital transfer of audio data over USB.

To be more specific, only the DPS-2 is recommended for the ADI-2/4 Pro SE, not the LNI-2 DC.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-09-22 13:59:54)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Happy_amateur wrote:
Kubrak wrote:

I do not suggest that, but slight improvement, measurable, but not hearable. would be better power source. RME has started to sell two models quite recently, but even MC from RME says, that while improvement is measurable, it is not hearable.

Another thing what one might change is to connect interface using optital and skip USB entirely. And avoid possible ground loops and like. Using optical would make devices galvanically separate. Something like RME Digiface USB would do the trick.

But as you do not have problems, you do not need it, really.

Better to "invest" to loudspeakers, and mainly room treatment. The room is mostly the weakest point in audiochain.

If you want to expand your world you should get a RME interface with full TMfx like UCXII. Highly recomended! Its somewhat the same sound, but functionality is just another level. For my taste ADI series doesnt have enough analog I/O to be a hub in the system. With UCXII and ADI2-Pro fsr be combo this isnt a question anymore. I just have the best of both worlds. ADI sound, TMfx control + more I/O. And better. Recent firmware added 9 band EQ and crossfeed. TMfx is easy to learn to, I have no bacground in music making. If you are interested in building such a digital system you should check out RME pages and important: DL and read some manuals for understanding of these products.

See his intro post: "I am a user of the ADI-2/4 PRO SE DAC in a home HIFI audio installation."
He doesn't need a recording interface.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

I dont need a recording interface either, but I have super use for TMfx. Best investment for home stereo use.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Happy_amateur wrote:

I dont need a recording interface either, but I have super use for TMfx. Best investment for home stereo use.

Occasionally I hook up CD players and other old school analog stuff + analyzer. So routing and extensive I/O is nice. You can sum channels for subs etc.
If you are thinking of getting a Digiface I would much rather save some more for a UCXII. Digiface doesnt have DSP. If you dont need it specifically its pretty boring. You see I bought the Digiface before the UCXII big_smile which I shouldnt.
So TMfx, UCXII, ADI2-pro is just mighty fun.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Digiface brings TotalMix (but no effects), one may plug CD player in (at least those that have optical SPDIF out).

But OK, one may buy Babyface Pro FS. One would have TM (with limited FX ability) and four analog inputs.

People have different needs and preferences. So, what fits you, may or may not fit others. UCX II is nice device, but it costs. Why would one buy it if he would have no use for most of its features?

FF UCX II, Digiface USB, Babyface Pro FS
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

"People have different needs and preferences. So, what fits you, may or may not fit others. UCX II is nice device, but it costs. Why would one buy it if he would have no use for most of its features?"

You asked so I shared my experience. About cost you should sum what you would spend on fancy cables and isolators

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_
  • ramses
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Maybe we should allow the OP a little time to digest all the information (which will surely be new and surprising to him)
and time to respond.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

15 Reply by bejoro (edited by bejoro 2024-09-23 08:09:26)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

The AudioQuest Diamond USB cable costs from 770 Euro (0.75 m).
An UCX II should not be a problem.

Recommendation: @dgpuentes
The USB cable has absolutely no influence on the sound quality.
Please consider selling this useless cable and investing the money in something useful. Every mechanically well made USB cable for example from Sommer Cable or Lindy will be of higher quality.

I know the AudioQuest products very well (former dealer for many years - but I now see these things very differently).

bejoro's Website

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

USB cable for 770 EUR? My god! Is it handmade of gold and diamonds?

FF UCX II, Digiface USB, Babyface Pro FS
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

OP is obviously a troll: they start a controversial topic hoping to initiate a flamed argument, and disappear themselves.

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Kubrak wrote:

USB cable for 770 EUR? My god! Is it handmade of gold and diamonds?

No, it is not.
The quality is rather average but beautifully made and linked to very good marketing. 
That's the problem with most of these products that are labeled “audiophile high-end”. 
As @KaiS said, it's all about faith.

bejoro's Website

  • Registered: 2024-09-21
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Good afternoon.

Sorry for not appearing on the Forum before.

Thank you all for your responses. We will try to assimilate all the information and investigate each option proposed to see if any of them seem reasonable to us to invest in.

My profile is not technical, I have always been fond of listening to music and I wanted to be able to do so in the domestic sphere in the best conditions that I could afford financially.
Over the course of five years I have been working hand in hand with one of my brothers and several friends, taking steps to complete the installation of the equipment. They are people with technical knowledge in this matter and without them I would not have been able to do it.

During this time we have worked on several aspects:
Dedicated power line.
Mains filters
Acoustic study of the room and treatment.
Investment in good components.
Equalization (something fundamental - you realize its importance when you have it available - here the purchase of the ADI 2/4 was essential)

Now that I consider that I have already reached the goal I was aiming for and I enjoy it every day, the doubts that you raised have arisen due to the influence of the friend who is a user of master clock and switches. He considers that in his case these elements have provided him with a substantial improvement in auditions.
I considered that in my case it would not be necessary but in view of the doubts, I decided to ask you. Although I am very satisfied with what I have, I am not closed to the option of improvement if this is possible.

There is little more I can say to you, only to reiterate my thanks for your help. If there is anything else you can suggest to me, I am all ears.

(By the way, buying the Audioquest USB is the only decision I have made on my own, without consulting my advisors, it is obvious that I am a disaster if left alone... sad

Regards.

20 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-09-23 20:08:00)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Thank you for your kind feedback and I am pleased that you did not take offense at me expressing my opinion about the cable very directly.

Without knowing your other components, I am of the opinion that with the ADI-2/4 Pro SE you have purchased a very good component for transparent, high-quality conversion.

Your amplifiers and speakers will certainly be great too. I can already tell from your words that you are clearly satisfied with your setup. I would say, just enjoy your setup.

If you need some help fine-tuning the settings of the ADI-2/4 Pro SE, I'm sure there will be someone here who will be happy to help you.

Dynamic Loudness, 5 different Reference Levels and Autoreflevel are the RME features you should definitely take a look at. KaiS has written some interesting posts on the subject of D/A filters.

If you also use a Windows PC or laptop as a player, then I can warmly recommend MusicBee as a music player. In addition to ASIO driver support, auto play lists and support for different sample rates, you can also operate it remotely from an Android device via a plugin or automatically transfer music to USB devices using autoplaylists to have your favorite tracks in the car. You can also use replay gain tags to normalize the volume so that the volume in the car is as even as possible.

If you have other sources in your HiFi system, such as a TV or Blu-ray player, then I can highly recommend using a TOSLINK switcher in front of the ADI-2/4 Pro SE. When connecting the TV, the connection via optical SPDIF is particularly recommended. If you also have satellite TV, the galvanic isolation means there is no humming noise due to potential differences, which can be very loud and annoying, especially when using satellites. The Oehlbach Optosel Mk II is highly recommended here. Also looks good and has a remote. But make sure you get the "Mk II", because only these devices are really able to support 192 kHz if you have such music titles in your collection.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

"(By the way, buying the Audioquest USB is the only decision I have made on my own, without consulting my advisors, it is obvious that I am a disaster if left alone... sad"

I wouldnt be so hard on myself. I for certainely have my share of jewelery cable in a drawer somewhere, and possibly someone else here big_smile . Now I make my own cables from bulk studio cable. Its a philosophy, saving money for the bigger things. Not to chop it up and solving problems I didnt have. Bigger things will be like new speakers, Interface or a new TV. An actual component..

I dont mean to denigrate your project, but Id be careful about taking to many advice from to many people(audiophiles). Buying audiophile products is a jungle with lots of predators. Stay careful smile

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Good morning everyone.

@Ramsés:
I currently only use the ADI 2/4 for the Stereo Music System but I'll note down the tips in case I use it later within the TV / SAT System.

I also wanted to specify what the digital playback chain I currently have is:

On a MAC MINI dedicated exclusively to listening to music, I have the ROON software installed. The music library in ROON is fed by a Local Hard Drive with its own power supply, connected via USB-A to the MAC MINI and by the QOBUZ internet service (I have symmetrical 600/600 optical fiber that reaches the MAC MINI via CAT8 cable directly from the telephone company's commercial router).
When playing, ROON identifies the signal path as LOSSLESS in all cases, except when playing some DSF DSD file that exists on the Hard Drive. In these cases, ROON does a format and resolution conversion, so it identifies the signal path as HIGH QUALITY (A real example is a DSF DSD128 2ch source file, ROON does a conversion to 352.8kHz PCM and a 64bit Float to 32bit resolution conversion).
ROON processes the audio files that come to it through its own system called ROON ADVANCED AUDIO TRANSPORT and sends them to the ADI 2/4 through a USB-A output where the famous Audioquest USB A-B is connected.
The ADI 2/4 uses the COREAUDIO EXCLUSIVE MODE system to play what comes from ROON.

In summary, these are the characteristics of my installation when playing digital audio files.

And my doubts arose as to whether I could reinforce any link in this chain with some additional element (either by using some intermediate device between the commercial router and the MAC MINI that improves the internet signal, or some external clock system that refines the signal between the MAC MINI and the ADI 2/4).

Thanks for everything. Greetings!

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Happy_amateur wrote:

"(By the way, buying the Audioquest USB is the only decision I have made on my own, without consulting my advisors, it is obvious that I am a disaster if left alone... sad"

I wouldnt be so hard on myself. I for certainely have my share of jewelery cable in a drawer somewhere, and possibly someone else here big_smile . Now I make my own cables from bulk studio cable. Its a philosophy, saving money for the bigger things. Not to chop it up and solving problems I didnt have. Bigger things will be like new speakers, Interface or a new TV. An actual component..

I dont mean to denigrate your project, but Id be careful about taking to many advice from to many people(audiophiles). Buying audiophile products is a jungle with lots of predators. Stay careful smile

Okay, I'll be very careful not to succumb to the "audiophile" influences that surround me... smile

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

"Okay, I'll be very careful not to succumb to the "audiophile" influences that surround me... "

big_smile

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Kubrak wrote:

I do not suggest that, but slight improvement, measurable, but not hearable. would be better power source. RME has started to sell two models quite recently, but even MC from RME says, that while improvement is measurable, it is not hearable.

This measurable improvement has never been published. It would be fair to see it.

  • Kubrak
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Well, it has not been published, but as far as I remember, @MC from RME has written that in thread about that power supplies.

IMHO, the possible improvement will be really subtle.

FF UCX II, Digiface USB, Babyface Pro FS

27 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-09-26 21:01:05)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

Kubrak wrote:

Well, it has not been published, but as far as I remember, @MC from RME has written that in thread about that power supplies.

There are measurements and charts in the manuals of RME DPS-2 and LNI-2 DC, regarding the quality of the DC output and de-coupling from the AC mains.

The ADI-2 is built with SMPS supply in mind, having their own optimized internal multi-voltage PSU’s and filterings built in.
So, all ADI-2 models themselves don‘t show any PSU-related disturbances, there‘s no room for direct improvements in this regard, which means no comparative measurements possible.

The interaction with other connected devices like power amps or active speakers, even with some planar magnetic and electrostatic headphones, is another story.
These can’t be quantified by measurements, as they are complex and highly configuration dependent.


But – there’s a simple rule:
If you don’t hear noise, you don’t have a noise problem.


Leakage mains currents/voltages can cause audible noise effects in certain configurations.
The new “soft ground” 3-prong SMPS delivered with ADI-2/4 Pro SE, NT-RME-11 / ATS-12040, (available separately too) already addresses the majority of those problems:https://rme-audio.de/files/uploads/RME-Products/Accessories/Cables/RME_Power_Supply-with_Locking_Connector-NT-11.png

RME DPS-2 and LNI-2 DC even go some steps further.


Still, if noise creeps into the audio system from a USB connection, it usually needs to be addressed by using an USB-isolator:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 03#p223103
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 09#p201609

Again: if you don’t hear noise, you don’t have a noise problem.

KaiS's Website

28 Reply by bejoro (edited by bejoro 2024-09-26 17:23:38)

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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

The RME NT-RME-11 is the correct power supply for ADI-2/4 PRO (and useable/recommended for ADI-2 PRO/DAC to solve grounding problems).

https://rme-audio.de/files/downloads/Me … -24.04.pdf

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  • KaiS
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Re: ADI-2/4 PRO SE - Can be improved with any external component?

bejoro wrote:

The RME NT-RME-11 is the correct power supply for ADI-2/4 PRO (and useable/recommended for ADI-2 PRO/DAC to solve grounding problems).

https://rme-audio.de/files/downloads/Me … -24.04.pdf

Thanx, correct, typo, it’s the:
12V, 3,3A (40W) NT-RME-11 (lockable).

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