• Registered: 2024-11-05
  • Posts: 10

Topic: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

Hey there

My current setup
I have a small studio with a Dante network using a Focusrite Red16line, a Ferrofish A32 (with Madi, DANTE) and a Ferrofish Pulse 16 (with Madi). Also an A&H SQ6 mixer with Dante card, currently not in use. A couple of small routers are there to make things easier.

For illustration purposes assume I have three "stations" in my studio:
1. my desk (mixing/mastering)
2. on one side, modular synthesisers
3. on the other side, keyboards

What I like about Dante is that I can simply plug the devices in my network & go. Potentially even remote devices like an H9000R with Dante, which could go into the server room. But I digress.

What I dislike about my setup

  • Dante is complex. I am used to it by now, but still.

  • The red16 line has a fan. I like quiet. (Same for the SQ6 with Dante - thats why it is not in use)

What I currently miss

I like to use the stations individually sometimes, eg. just turn on the keyboards, jam away, do some recordings to my Push 3 standalone etc. Or only mix (the desk) and leave the rest of the stations turned off - saves energy and reduces the heat (all that analog gear…)

So… for the nth time I have considered moving to RME, and possibly MADI.

I spent the last two days trying to understand what would work, but the more I read, the more confusing it gets.

What I would like to achieve

  • record anything from anywhere in my studio into my DAW

  • record anything from anywhere into Push standalone, no matter at which station I work

  • be able to turn on just one station and play the local gear over local speakers (I have three stations and three sets of speakers… yeah oh well don't ask)

  • when I use my Buchla stuff, I sometimes want to go quad – in other words, route the audio to four individual speakers

  • I also want to be able to play all gear over all speakers (in that case, each pair is simply in stereo)

My current setup allows for some of these things, but not all.

One of the things I like about RME is Totalmix. I have similar functionality with the Rednet Control 2, but this requires the "desk" station with the red16line interface to be running.

The idea that devices can work independently is intriguing.

I could use TotalMix to either only use one station ("keyboards") and hear the keyboards on the local speakers, or turn on the keys and synths (two stations) and hear everything on one set of speakers (or two sets) or turn on everything and record to the DAW, or playback from the DAW and jam on any of the synths… I hope someone can still follow me ;-)

So from my understanding this is what Totalmix allows me to do. However, it seams not all RME devises have TotalMix, and that is where it gets confusing. It seems only/mainly the interfaces have TotalMIx, but not the converters.

What I thought could work

My idea was to use e.g. a MadiFace XT2 for the desk and two M-1620 Pro for the synth and keyboard stations. (this would mean I switch to Madi). However, as far as I can tell, this would not solve my issue, because M-1620 Pro's do not have TotalMix, in other words, they would not be useful to run a station independently from the rest of the studio, correct?

What might work instead

In that case, should I just get three MadiFace XT2, one for each station, and ignore the "interface" part for two of these? Or even get the UFXIIIs instead?

If anyone can bring clarity to my thinking I'd be much obliged.

Thanks
- Fables

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-11-06 09:09:04)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,182

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

Hi Fables,

Welcome to the RME user forum.

I try to split the answers into a few postings.

First to your more generic questions

> So from my understanding this is what Totalmix allows me to do.
> However, it seams not all RME devises have TotalMix, and that is where it gets confusing.
> It seems only/mainly the interfaces have TotalMIx, but not the converters.

Devices are simply divided into recording interfaces, preamps and AD/DA converters. Recording interfaces establish the connection to the computer / DAW via USB or PCIe and require a digital mixer for control tasks (routing, loopback, integration of controllers, etc.).

The other devices are used to expand the number of channels and are connected to the recording interface via other digital interfaces such as ADAT, AES, MADI, AVB and Dante. This is a classic division of devices that every manufacturer follows in principle.

This is also a sensible approach because you have the lowest latency for monitoring within such a device network (e.g. via MADI). If all devices were connected to the computer via USB, then you would have to route via the DAW and would always have the full RTL (round trip latency) in audio flows between the devices.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,182

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

Regarding the selection of recording device.
I recommend staying with one recording interface and having only one TotalMix FX instance.

Otherwise, the PC has to stay on, and you would need the DAW to route between converters connected to the two different recording interfaces.

Then you would always have the RTL (round trip latency) when routing audio between the devices. Because there is no internal backplane between two recording interfaces / TM FX instances. In contrast to that, you can route between ports connected to one recording interface in Near-Realtime. Then you only have the converter latency and maybe 2–3 samples delay inside the recording interface for transport from one to the other port.

You could make a cross connection between two recording interfaces using ADAT (for only a few channels) or using MADI (if the recording interface has multiple MADI buses, only few offer this), but this makes operation of routing more cumbersome.

Because with two recording interfaces you have already to operate two TM FX instances, one for each recording interface and additionally you would have to manage the routing between such a "fast path" between the recording interfaces to avoid the routing over the PC/DAW.

Another thing regarding the MADIface XT II. This device has a lot of channels because it has 3 MADI buses.
If you connect two of these devices then it is not clear whether your PC is capable to handle 394 x 2 = 788 channels.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-11-06 09:08:31)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,182

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

Next important question is whether you want to be able to operate the recording interface in standalone mode.

An UFX III has DURec as feature so it would be possible to use it like a field recorder without having to use the DAW and to record to an USB stick. One would have to check, whether the stand-alone capabilities of this device would be sufficient for you. Theoretically you could save routing profiles into 6 user configurable slots. One would need to check whether this covers all your routing needs for standalone operation. Maybe also the configuration of channels will be stored that will be recorded by DURec. For sure you could basically store routings for your different use cases to monitor to different active monitors.

If I remember right there is an iPAD application of TM FX so that you can easier operate the unit in stand-alone mode.
You could also consider using ARC USB connected to the UFX III in stand-alone mode, to easier select one of the 8 snapshots which can have different routings for your monitoring.

The UFX III would be a fantastic device and is feature rich, but has only one MADI bus.

The big question is, how many analog I/O channels you need and whether you record in single or double speed.

If one UFX III with 8x analog I/O and two M-1620 Pro with 2x 16 analog I/O would be sufficient, then you could work up to double speed (88.2 / 96 kHz). If you work at single speed, then you can even connect up to 4x M-1620 Pro.

Max # of Ports, depending on sample rate and number of converters:
UFX III + 2x M-1620 Pro at single speed: 8 + 16 + 16 = 40 ports
UFX III + 4x M-1620 Pro at single speed: 8 + 16 + 16 + 16 +16 = 72 ports
UFX III + 2x M-1620 Pro at double speed: 8 + 16 + 16 = 40 ports

Then you could place the two M-1620 to the left and right to keep analog cables short and the UFX III where it fits best, to the left, right or in the middle.

Additionally you can think about connecting an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for your main monitoring and headphones to make use of its unique features.

PC----USB2--------------+ for remote control with ADI-2 Remote and for firmware updates
| USB3                        | otherwise ADI-2 Pro being used in ADDA mode standalone in this setup
|     +---ARC USB         |
|   /  +--DURec            |
| /  /                            |
UFX III---ADAT1---ADI-2 Pro FS R BE---Main monitors and headphones
|      |
|      +M-1620 Pro
|      |
|      +M-1620 Pro
|       |
|       + ....
|       |
+----+   

optional: iPAD with TM FX application for operating UFX III in stand-alone mode

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,182

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

To your other questions regarding TM FX in general, routing possibilities, flexibility.

I think all that you raised as a requirement in terms of routing can be done.

Everything from the HW inputs is being passed unaltered (default) to the DAW/application.
This can be changed to use FX, but default is to not touch/alter the signal.

The greatest flexibility in TotalMix FX is the middle row, call SW Playbacks.
This is simply audio from PC/DAW/application.
In the application you send audio as usual to the output, but not to the real outputs, to the SW playbacks 1st.

This gives the fantastic flexibility / patch-bay character of TotalMix FX.

For _every_ HW output (in the bottom row) you can create an _individual_ submix of
- HW inputs (top row, in near-realtime)
- SW playbacks (middle row, audio from PC over USB)

So even when recording your synth with the DAW you do not need to get the monitoring signal from the DAW.
Instead of this you can add a routing from the Analog Input (synthy) to the Analog Ouput of your phones.
By this you save the RTL (going over USB/DAW and back) and have your monitoring in "near-realtime".

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2024-11-05
  • Posts: 10

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

Thanks Ramses for your info, I know you are extremely knowledgable about these things from reading some of the replies you wrote on the forum, and also from trying to get through your spreadsheet. I much appreciate your help!

I don't necessarily need DUREC in the studio (we are using that in our live setup however, but that is a different story) as the way I work ATM is using the PUSH standalone to record. But it would not harm to have a backup & options etc. Still, not a requirement at this stage.

Also I typically record at 48KHz, although again, options & future compatibility are a bonus. I don't need a lot of channels per se, and generally not a lot at the same time (I only have two hands ;-)) but being able to route & record around the studio is useful to me. For instance, when using my SQ6 Mixer, I would route everything to the mixer and be able to quickly adjust volumes, add gates, compression etc such that I could play any instrument I want and not need any additional setup. Also easy if I have musicians come over for a jam – just plug in the mixer, go.

My current interface sends 64 channels to the DAW, and that is sufficient. But again, routing in/out etc is useful.

MADI always sends 64 channels per wire. If I would use three interfaces (contrary to your suggestion) I believe I could simply configure e.g. the synthesiser station to have two snapshots – one for standalone, one for "to the DAW" (as examples). Same for the keyboards station. Then, each of these could be connected with one MADI cable to the "main" interface (the desk station). Basically, once setup, I don't need to touch the TotalMix/interface part of the stations anymore, the setup runs local, and output via MADI should be the same for these as for a converter. Hence I don't see why there would be additional RTL or the computer's need to be running. Am I missing something there?


The core of my endeavour is to have the three "stations" independently, but also connected to each other/the DAW if needed.

If I use a converter (no TotalMix on the converter), it will not allow me to define a standalone routing on the converter, or will it?

If so, how could I instead achieve independent operation?

7 Reply by fables (edited by fables 2024-11-06 10:19:48)

  • Registered: 2024-11-05
  • Posts: 10

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

And yeah, the number of analog I/O is an open question that I have pretty much ignored so far, assuming that I can add I/O if needed.

For the desk I do need some additional analog I/O, not the least for monitors and the occasional module or HW effect I plug into my mixing sessions. For all I see the MADIface XT has no option for additional analog I/O - not even a single ADAT port, ouch. For my setup, I would then probably need its two optical MADI ports for the synth/keys stations (connecting converters or other interfaces), and could then only use the coax MADI to add more I/O locally (at the desk).

I could daisy chain a device.

Here the beauty of DANTE really shows – I can buy any DANTE device, plug it anywhere into my network, and have whatever additional I/O I need right where I need it. Even a mono input or output is available for DANTE, and relatively cheaply.

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,182

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

The disadvantage of AVB and Dante is that you have not the usual clock synch mechanism.
If you change sample rates, then you have to reconfigure every flow.

If you work with MADIface XT II (use the II here to get also RoomEQ), then each XT has three MADI busses.
And this is a lot of ports, why you might have issues with your PC if you need to connect both at the same time.

As you have so many different speakers for monitoring, you can't connect them to one XT alone, so you have to connect them partially to XT and other via MADI connected devices.

If you would work with two XT's then you would get audio in on e.g. device B, but the speaker might be at device A.

And then you always would have to route via DAW and .. need to keep everything on.

As I mentioned, best would be one recording interface, I would start with UFX III and under the assumption, that single speed is enough for the time being even for double speed there is headroom. UFX III and two M-1620 offer you 40 analog inputs and outputs as I listed already above.

The UFX III and the two M-1620 you would connect in a serial chain on the one MADI bus of the UFX III.

With this setup you have the freedom to work stand-alone or with the PC/DAW.
And you can route any input and sw playback channel to any output, no matter whether on UFX III or on any connected output on via MADI connected converter.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2024-11-05
  • Posts: 10

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

Thanks again Ramses. I still can't see how a standalone setup would work, but given that the interface is fanless, I could of course turn on the interface even when just working on one station, so that TotalMix can control what is happening in e.g. the M-1620. However… if that is the case, I see no need to buy the M-1620s, I can just use my existing Ferrofish MADI converters, connect them to the MADIface XT II or UFX III and manage these via TotalMix just as I would the M 1620s. In other words, I would get rid of my superb Red16line to have no more fan noise, but also lose its massive amount of inputs and the R1 remote control… plus I would need to lay fiber through the studio. Not sure that is worth it TBH. It is only half a solution with a lot of cost & effort.

10 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-11-06 15:58:58)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,182

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

> I still can't see how a standalone setup would work

Without the UFX III being connected to the PC or the PC turned off. Then you can use the UFX III like a tape deck.
Audio is being written to external disk or stick, see separate thread on forum about pen devices for this purpose.
I am using a 256 GB Sandisk USB3 stick which is capable to transport audio without any break in between,
this is needed because the UFX III has no memory buffers, so it needs to be ensured that the external disk or pen device
can transmit instantly. Some devices can do, some not, depends on the controller.

I used this often for quick recordings of guitar through two tube amps (stereo setup) with external FX (Lexicon PCM 81 and 91). PC was on for the backing track but I was too lazy to fire up DAW. If there was a brilliant recording then I could plug the USB3 stick with the DURec file to the PC and import into the DAW which needs to support such a multitrack wave file or you need to use the tool from DAW to extract the audio tracks to single wave format files.

You can of course re-use your existing devices which are capable for MADI.
Even if the Pulse 16 does not support MADI out of the box you can upgrade it to MADI for a little upgrade fee so that it is a Pulse 16M.

Then you can base everything to a much better RME based solution with TM FX which will definitively be much better and more flexible compared to Focusrite digital mixer. I had Mixcontrol with a Liquid Saffire 56 in the past and it was a pain.
TotalMix FX is for me the complete opposite, flexible, logic, structured, powerful, user-friendly if you understand submix mode which is easy to understand (if you know that you have to understand a little and to not mix it with a normal analog mixing desk, as every HW output has an individual submix, only this you have to know and operation is easy and logic once you know how to operate it).

You also are getting rid of any complexity based on Dante regarding clock synch and which additionally requires configuration of QoS on L2 and L3 switches / routers.

You only need a few fiber patch cables, nothing tricky, no patch bays for fiber, you are no datacenter.
Simply get a few OM3 or better OM4 cables (multimode). Only do not bend too much but otherwise this is a simple "isi pisi" task. I have "multimode fiber" not only in my rig, but also in the living room for 10GBit LAN between two PCs for backup purposes.

Simply get plastic cable ducts, e.g. 1x1cm and stick them over plaster, e.g. on tile end strips, you can simply sink the multimode cables into them and at a corner with a 90° angle you simply don't bend them too tightly.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2024-11-05
  • Posts: 10

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

I have ordered the UFX III, I will see how it works out for me. Thanks again!

12 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-11-06 19:13:52)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,182

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

Congrats.

I will give you a few well-intentioned recommendations from my experience:

1. take a look at the RME online tutorials, which are refreshingly short and to the point and therefore don't waste any time. I would even recommend them before reading the manual to get a good overview.

2. leaf through the UFX III manual. Take a closer look at the things that interest you, and you will have learned something straight away. It is helpful to have seen how it is structured and what it says where.

3) I would also order the ARC USB directly because it simplifies the operation of TotalMix and is not that expensive. It fits perfectly to the right of the mouse so that it can be operated quickly with the right hand.

4) I would consider buying the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for your main monitors. I am using two in my setup as I have everything in the living room and am using the PC also as music player, so one ADI for for recording corner, the other for the HiFi corner.

The following blog article describes the special features of these devices:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/
and the other the integration into your setup:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/
Also look at the manual, it gives a nice overview of all features.

This allows you to enjoy the device-specific features and has the positive side effect that you can leave the output fader in TM FX at 0 dB. This also avoids accidental volume jumps if you accidentally load a snapshot or workspace with the output fader set to 0 dB instead of -30. This may happen if you have too high level-mismatches in your setup.
Please also read this useful posting from Mr. Carstens regarding this topic:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25399

The ADI-2 Pro FS remembers the last volume and features such as auto ref level or slow ramp-up of volume if you insert headphones or switch between active monitors and headphones are very useful.

5. the following sticky posting gives a nice intro about TotalMix FX, some points I mentioned already above:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34394

Last but not lest I would get a few multimode fiber cables.

The UFX III needs the bigger SC plugs, the other devices are using SFPs with the smaller plugs, so you will need OM4 multimode patchcables of around 1-3m in length with the suitable plug standards.
Assumed one device left, UFX III maybe at the center and the other Ferro right or whatever you prefer:

      Ferro#1(left)---LC----->-----SC---UFX III(center)---SC----->-------LC---Ferro#2(right)
          |                                                                                                          |
          +--------------LC----------------------<---------------------------------LC-------+


So you need 1x OM4  LC to LC and 2x OM4 SC to LC (which also covers the case vice versa).

The duplex cables have a clip you can make single cables out of it or keep the 2nd one unused.

I would directly order some spares for backup/safety reasons.

Have fun!

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2024-11-05
  • Posts: 10

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

Thanks a lot for the cable suggestion – I figured that mine will be 10, 15 and 20 meters long, and I will buy each one as a duplex but only use one strand, thus I have one reserve for each connection. These will have to go into the cable ducts, hence the length! That will be a bit of pain for sure.

BTW, do you know if "MADI" outlets exist? I could not really find anything, I guess I could ask my electricians if that exists for the cable ducts I have. Otherwise I will just leave them hanging loosely – that worked for ADAT, so no worries (velcro to the sound insulation pads, and everything is out of the way)

I will gladly read up on the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, thanks for the links & suggestion.

The ARC USB is a must. As I said, I now have a lovely REDNET R1 as my monitoring/routing remote. I hope I will not miss it.

Cheers!

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,182

Re: Switching from Focusrite/Ferrofish/Dante - confused about what I need

> BTW, do you know if "MADI" outlets exist?

Yes, but establishing kind of "rack-to-rack" connections with multimode fiber requires precise splicing and cable installation, which is a complex task demanding specialized tools, such as fusion splicers, and a high level of expertise.

I can't comment on costs. Generally, using pre-terminated patch cables is more straightforward and cost-effective and can be done by everybody and doesn't need any special tool.

For MADI devices, multimode fiber can support transmission distances of up to 2 km between each unit in a daisy-chained setup.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14