1 (edited by fables 2024-11-20 20:25:16)

Topic: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Now  that I have switched to a brand new UFXiii (from Red 16line), trouble shooting mode has started again.

I am running on a MacBook Pro M1. MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Audio dropouts last between .3 and .7 seconds so far, when measured. To measure, I use a test tone generator in Ableton Live and record on the interface directly to DURec. The dropouts therefore a not caused by the speakers or the connection to them.

See attached screenshot of what a sine wave looks like, recorded directly with DUREC. As you can see, something is off and then the interface seems to shut down audio.

Firmware 2.0

Driver 4.16

I have removed any stray kernel extensions as discussed in other threads. I do not get any error message whatsoever and have no idea where to look for the issue.

Any help appreciated

https://i.imgur.com/gQvgaZL.png
https://i.imgur.com/unDBuBJ.png

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Is that yellow region the dropout you're referring to? What about the weird discontinuities in the test signal?

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Please try a different USB cable and/or USB-C port. Directly to the Macbook with no hubs.
Also test USB 2.0 mode. See manual and look for "interface mode".

Regards,
Audio AG Support

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Steffen wrote:

Is that yellow region the dropout you're referring to? What about the weird discontinuities in the test signal?

Hm yes. As you can see, the sine wave suddenly isn't a sine wave anymore, then the audio stops. The yellow region is only there to measure the length of the dropout. Focus on the sine.

5 (edited by fables 2024-11-21 10:24:52)

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Audio AG Support wrote:

Please try a different USB cable and/or USB-C port. Directly to the Macbook with no hubs.
Also test USB 2.0 mode. See manual and look for "interface mode".

No hubs, directly connected, everything else disconnected. Tried two of the ports, no difference. I am not using USB 2 as I need the Madi channels, that is why I bought the interface in the first place.

I also won't use class compliant mode, as I need TM, which is the other reason why I bought the interface.

Reading for hours through the various posts on this forum I have collected the following info, although nothing is "official"

- M1 USB audio has a problem, Thunderbolt doesn't
- the v3.3 Kernel driver might help, as one can set a higher buffer value, but Apple is discontinuing direct access to the Kernel, which is why RME has driver v4.7
- USB2 has no problems, because less channels mean less data. That is also why other RME interfaces have no problem, like the BabyFace.
- class compliant mode might solve it (not sure why it should, maybe higher buffer settings?) but then TotalMix is not available anymore except through an iPad - more clutter & devices, not less, I don't like it.
- it seems to be an Apple problem that also other interface providers struggle with, but nobody has heard anything from Apple regarding a fix.

--------

Meanwhile I did a couple more tests. I tried to open a lot of memory-hungry applications and sometimes, audio will stop for several seconds if I do so. ActivityMoniror did not show any memory swapping.

Also, when I play audio, sometimes it doesn't simply stop but does have some distortion before it stops. Looking at what happens to the sine wave test signal, it is very well possible that I hear some distortion in an audio signal before it is shut off.

Obviously, RME won't be able to help much or else this wouldn't be an issue anymore.

It seems to me that issue is not solvable from our end at this time. I will consider the UFX+ instead, which has Thunderbolt.

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

I proceeded to de-install the driver 4.7 and instead install the kernel extension driver 3.33 to see if that makes a difference. I have set the Safety Offset in the Fireface USB sessions app to Large, which is the largest option (this ain't Starbucks, folks ;-)).

I then proceeded to open a couple of ram hungry apps - Pixelmator is a good one, takes 3 GB ram on my system. imOvie, a couple of websites in Safari, and Chrome. So far, memory in ActivityMonitor still green (I have 16GB in this MacBook Pro M1)

Then I launched https://browserbench.org/JetStream/ in Chrome & Safari, also loaded a big project in Live (select Clip "RAM" mode to load the whole file into RAM - 5GB!

Long story short – it still has audio dropouts – but at that point the system was swapping 5 GB of memory.

I don't know what the additional latency for the "Large" setting is, and if it matters for my use cases, but I am pretty positive that it is much harder to get audio dropouts this way. Is it good enough? I don't know. I will sleep over it. I have the option to buy a UFX+ tomorrow, so a decision has to be made.

UFX III via USB3 with the chance of audio dropouts (probably none as my testing was seriously a lot harder on the ram than my usual workflow) vs UFX+ via Thunderbolt, which should have no issues at all.

Any feedback?

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

ups… I was too optimistic. Just had a some crackling with no memory pressure whatsoever, and no load on the CPU. I think the choice is clear. Bye bye UFX III - it was nice while it lasted.  Fingers crossed your 8 year older sibling has what it needs.

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

To wrap this up, I returned the UFX3 because of audio dropout issues with the MacBook Pro M1. I am now using UFX+ via thunderbolt, so far without any audio dropouts. I can only recommend MacBook users to look for a Thunderbolt solution. Unfortunately, as of the time of this writing, USB3 on the MacBook seems to be unable to deal with the high channel count of these devices without crackles and drop outs.

9 (edited by maggie33 2024-12-25 01:52:46)

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Works flawlessly here. No dropouts or sth.

Maybe it had to do sth with your MacOS related config?

Tested with:
UFX III (latest Firmware) connected directly via USB3 to:
MacStudio M1 Max
Sequoia 15.1.1
DK v.4.17


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I don't like to be a spreader of such practices...   
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“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Just wondering - did you add load to the system, like I described? Make sure the memory starts swapping. It is not directly related to that but will reliably trigger an audio drop-out. Also, I did record for two hours. Drop-outs occurred at random times, also when I had no memory pressure whatsoever.

I have moved on to the UFX+, so consider this topic closed for me.

11 (edited by maggie33 2024-11-26 00:06:42)

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Thanks - anyhow the topic is closed for you, I just would like to reproduce and understand your issue.

Ok, i did a new test today - tried to max out CPU load, RAM and the USB3 throughput. Believe me or not - i had dozens of apps running at the same time....

Let me describe - all things here were running at the same time:
- UFX III was recording via DUREC to a USB Stick
- Ableton was sending a sine Wave at 0dB and recording the AES Playback to the blue track
- Ableton was set to simulate the max cpu load (80%)
- The clip RAM was also set for all Tracks
- browserbench jetstream was also running
- I even started two instances of an app which played some Audio in Xcode (the red marks in screenshot) to add additional load on cpu, RAM, CoreAudio and the USB3 Bus (one instance on simulator, the other directly on my Mac)

Result:
- I cannot hear or see any dropouts.
- Nothing wron in the durec recording or abletons direct record.
- Cannot confirm this at all.

Let me ask 3 Questions:
Did you really record a sine wave for 2 hours, to look if there are dropouts?
How did you do it (as the browserbench thing just rans for 1,2 minutes)?
How much RAM does your M1 MacBook have?

BTW: I also cannot confirm your statement: "USB2 has no problems, because less channels mean less data. That is also why other RME interfaces have no problem, like the BabyFace."
Because you mix USB2 and USB3 in a total different context.
-> USB2 class spec defines 480 MBit/s transfer rate as maximum. Thats enough for less channel units.
-> While USB3 is specified at 5 GBit/s max. Thats enough to transfer all channels the UFX III needs (if properly connected to a USB3 controller on the Mac).

Here my screens:

https://pixshare.de/images/sHdyTX.png

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https://pixshare.de/images/sHdvFg.png

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

I just purchased a UFXIII and I'm am experiencing audio dropouts. It's random. I might go 6 hours without one, or experience dropouts every few minutes. I've re-installed drivers. I'm on latest Pro Tools, Spotify. I've updated all audio apps and plugins. I'm connecting via USB 3.0. No USB hub involved. I'm running everything at 48k with internal clock.

Tech support has not offered any solutions. This is incredibly frustrating since all I've read about is the stability of RME drivers. I've had this interface for a week and I've not found any solutions. It looks like it's a common problem by the several threads I found searching on this forum.

Is there any solutions? It really feels like the interface does not like sharing audio between multiple apps.

Macbook Pro 2021 M1
Sonoma 14.7.2
Driver 4.17
Flash v20

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

See post number 9
The difference i see is Sonoma vs Sequoia.
As your software runs fine on Sonoma it will have no issues on Sequoia (it is in use now for a time)
Let's hope the upgrade will solve the isseue, unfortunately I don't know any other magic trick.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Thanks for the reply. I was trying to avoid OS 15, but if that is the fix, I might need to take the plunge.

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

And there is no guarantee for the fix.
You are right, there is a lot of reports about dropouts, but the huge majority who has no issues and therefore do not report anything, this is invisible.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

Updating to OS15 did not fix the issue. I had two dropouts within ten minutes of playback.

I may try re-imaging the comp and starting fresh. If that doesn't work, then I may be forced to return the device.

17 (edited by waedi 2024-12-19 20:02:40)

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

I'm sorry to hear that, A total fresh install is what I also would do, I guess.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

maggie33 wrote:

Thanks - anyhow the topic is closed for you, I just would like to reproduce and understand your issue.

Ok, i did a new test today - tried to max out CPU load, RAM and the USB3 throughput. Believe me or not - i had dozens of apps running at the same time....


I don't see memory pressure in your picture at all. Everything is green.


maggie33 wrote:

Let me ask 3 Questions:
Did you really record a sine wave for 2 hours, to look if there are dropouts?
How did you do it (as the browserbench thing just rans for 1,2 minutes)?
How much RAM does your M1 MacBook have?


16GB shared memory. I did record for two hours, thats what I stated, yes. The browser bench  thing was for a different, first test. I described in one of the above post pretty much the exact setup, IIRC I was mainly using some memory hungry apps like Pixelmator, and loading a long jam into Ableton RAM, enough to ensure memory swapping will happen. In my tests, activity monitor clearly showed memory pressure, and swapping memory increased


maggie33 wrote:

BTW: I also cannot confirm your statement: "USB2 has no problems, because less channels mean less data. That is also why other RME interfaces have no problem, like the BabyFace."
Because you mix USB2 and USB3 in a total different context.
-> USB2 class spec defines 480 MBit/s transfer rate as maximum. Thats enough for less channel units.
-> While USB3 is specified at 5 GBit/s max. Thats enough to transfer all channels the UFX III needs (if properly connected to a USB3 controller on the Mac).

Not sure why this should be wrong. I was talking about all the people who said they have no problem with their smaller devices, that all use USB2. They do have less channels, that is a simple fact to check.

From my perspective, whatever the spec, USB3 doesn't work, and it does provide for a higher data throughput, as you rightly stated, which does result in more channels being processed, which does mean more data needs to be buffered etc. If I use USB2 with the same hardware, I have changed the setup to a point where it doesn't reflect the issue I am having with USB3.

So thanks, I understand that you want to find out what is wrong, but I did all I could for now to provide input. Maybe check that memory pressure issue. I wasn't talking about maxing the CPU out etc.

But who knows, the issue could be something else. Maybe it has nothing to do with USB3. Maybe it is the power conditioning or the I just have a computer that has random issues when processing audio. I don't know what to look at to find out, as I could not find any obvious errors in the logs. That is actually pretty unsettling, because something should report an issue when it encounters what you see in my screenshots.

19 (edited by maggie33 2024-12-20 03:13:18)

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

waedi wrote:

See post number 9
The difference i see is Sonoma vs Sequoia.
As your software runs fine on Sonoma it will have no issues on Sequoia (it is in use now for a time)
Let's hope the upgrade will solve the isseue, unfortunately I don't know any other magic trick.

Sonoma and Sequoia behave(d) exactly same here. I just always updated with new releases of MacOS, but never reinstalled a whole system (same for Linux and Windows) for more than 10 years or since the (win95 era is past ;-))...

So, I wonder how the rumor still exists today, by hoping a fresh install will fix everything, instead of trying to get the real cause...

To mention (again) I usually do not do single (one-file) recordings of (multiple) tracks for multiple (or 6 and more) hours.
If you do so, hundreds of reasons can cause dropouts...
Without further details, it is always just a guess. Impossible to give a proofed solution.

Anyhow some examples and tipps, you could check:
- Keeping the (general) formula in mind:
    File size (in bytes) = Sample rate × Bit depth × Channels × Duration (in seconds)
    This would be ~8GB for a 6 hour, stereo, 48kHz, 32bit float recording file (!)
- Afaik (not sure), Spotify usually plays its songs at 44.1kHz? Maybe better to switch your unit to this?
- Do you record into RAM or directly to a file?
- If RAM -> its not endless...  after a while, Mac will cache it to disk (see the swap-thing in this thread)
- Any other processes suddenly get active which affect RAM/Disk writes?
- Any other processes suddenly make use of the same USB controller?
- USB Cable physically 100% OK?
- Tried to raise the buffersize in Pro Tools?
- No other devices or sw that could interfere?
- Checked the RME Settings App for CRC errors?
- Used the Activity Monitor App for an spikes?
- Had a look in the Console App if there are some relevant logs during dropouts?
- etc... etc...

Edit: I addressed this to Tinball.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

20 (edited by Tinball 2024-12-20 02:49:58)

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

I didn't know doing a fresh install was a 'rumor' around here. Forgive me, I am new to the boards.

I am at the point of trying a fresh install, because that is where I am at. I've exhausted every other variable at this point. I've not had to do a fresh install in years either, but again, this the where I'm at. I've not read or heard of any other fixes for this known issue. RME tech support has been responsive, but has offered no solution either.

-Spotify can run with a 48k, 96 and up. Yes, it technically streams at 44.1, but any device I've owned has been able to playback Spotify without dropouts at 48k.

-I've tried multiple OS. I've unistalled and reinstalled the drivers. I've tried 44.1, 48k.
-I have removed other ACE drivers. Namely Audio Hijack, because there has been problems with their driver lately. That didn't help either.
-No CRC errors in RME Settings
-No memory, CPU or Hard disk spikes.

I'm using USB3 cable that came brand new with the UFX III. I've tried different ports.





Just random dropouts of audio.

21 (edited by maggie33 2024-12-20 04:15:48)

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

@fables, yes - i wanted to show that i was not possible to max out my RAM with "usual" apps.

But i am on 64GB RAM here...
Ok - so i just wrote a little bash script, which constantly pumps some data into RAM:

#!/bin/bash

# This script stresses the RAM by allocating memory in blocks of a specified size.

# Function to stress the RAM
stress_ram() {
    local data=()  # Array to hold the data in memory
    local block_size=$1  # Block size in MB passed as an argument
    local block_size_bytes=$((block_size * 1024 * 1024))  # Convert MB to bytes
    local counter=0  # Counter to track the total allocated memory

    echo "Starting RAM stress test with ${block_size} MB per block. Press Ctrl+C to stop."

    # Infinite loop to allocate memory
    while true; do
        # Generate a block of data and store it in the array
        data+=($(head -c "$block_size_bytes" </dev/zero | base64))
        counter=$((counter + block_size))  # Increment the total allocated memory
        echo "RAM usage: ${counter} MB"
        sleep 0.1  # Short pause to make the process observable
    done
}

# Check if block size argument is provided
if [[ $# -eq 0 ]]; then
    echo "Usage: $0 <block_size_in_MB>"
    exit 1
fi

# Call the stress function with the specified block size
stress_ram "$1"

Running the test again (for about 40 Minutes now)...
Till now: No dropouts...
Will post the results when the 64GB are reached.

https://i.ibb.co/hch8qBF/memtest-running.png

Edit: Here my result:

https://i.ibb.co/fX6GH4R/memtest-64gb-over-max.png

It seems that Apple does som kind of magic?
After the RAM was nearly 64 GB, the Mac swaps it to disk. I noticed  it by constantly lowering my free disk space.
Although, the RAM pressure is and was always green. And although my script was constantly pumping data into RAM.

Believe me or not, but i could not find even one dropout in the recorded sine file in ableton.
UFX III was connected via USB3 during this.


I described in one of the above post pretty much the exact setup

fables, (for me) your descriptions are not clear enough to be able to reproduce your issue.
Anyhow, I tried my best, to reproduce your issue while showing what i did as transparent as possible.
But without concrete facts and ability to reproduce what you did... I cannot confirm this at all.

“Do It For Her”
My Gear: Bontempi Magic light Keyboard

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

This is my experience with a FF 802 FS on a MBP M1 Max 32Gb (Sonoma 14.7.2 + DK 4.17). With the interface directly connected to the MacBook with USB2 cable i had random dropouts, not so many but very annoying. Then i've plugged the interface to my Apple Studio Display with the USB2 cable and the Apple monitor to the MacBook with the Apple Thunderbolt 4 cable (FF 802 (USB2)->Apple Studio Display (Thunderbolt 4)->MacBook Pro): i don't how it's possible but dropouts are gone. I was going to update the OS to Sequoia as the last try but for now it's fixed on my configuration. Hope it helps.

RME Fireface 802 FS AE, Focal Solo6 BE Anniversary, Neumann NDH30

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

mrck wrote:

This is my experience with a FF 802 FS on a MBP M1 Max 32Gb (Sonoma 14.7.2 + DK 4.17). With the interface directly connected to the MacBook with USB2 cable i had random dropouts, not so many but very annoying. Then i've plugged the interface to my Apple Studio Display with the USB2 cable and the Apple monitor to the MacBook with the Apple Thunderbolt 4 cable (FF 802 (USB2)->Apple Studio Display (Thunderbolt 4)->MacBook Pro): i don't how it's possible but dropouts are gone. I was going to update the OS to Sequoia as the last try but for now it's fixed on my configuration. Hope it helps.

Thanks for sharing

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

24 (edited by ss 2024-12-24 23:08:01)

Re: Audio dropouts with UFX iii on MacOS 14.7.1 (23H222)

I’ve recently (I think) fixed this with my UFXIII and M1 Pro by putting the unit into USB 2 mode.

However if you need the madi channels this won’t help.

I’d posit that the problem lies with the Pro version of the M1 specifically (M1 Max users don’t seem to be as affected) and also with USB3 specifically.