1 (edited by panu 2010-09-28 19:43:06)

Topic: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Problems with Sonar 8.5.3 32-bit / W7 64-bit / 2 x FF800 (3.020)

Summary: playback / recording will fail randomly. First playback will be severely stuttered, ie. robotic. Next playback will always cause Sonar play no sounds at all (but cursor keeps on moving and it can't be stopped).

Things I've tried & checked:
- With one unit everything is fine, especially when using legacy Firewire driver. Why not use legacy for 2 units? -Because Windows can't handle two Firefaces using legacy driver.
- I tried THREE different Firewire 800 and THREE different Firewire 400 interfaces hoping it is just hardware issue. Results: LSI is worst, it drops frames randomly (causing recorded tracks go out of sync). Currently there's a TI based card in the slot. It runs smoothly but it couldn't fix this issue.
- WDM/KS and WASAPI are not any better.
- In Audio Options I've tried practically every combination of selectable options. I've deleted AUD.INI and tried to make tweaks for multicore systems.
- Disabling / enabling audio devices in Control Panel / Sounds has no influence on this issue.
- System Information: Status of all IRQ's is OK.
- New Firewire 800 cables. I've tried three different brands. Now they are hi quality FW800 cables, same length.
- Power: PC, Firefaces, preamps, mixer & other devices are connected to same phase. Voltage is exactly 230V, 50 Hz.
- PC Power Supply: installed in January, 550 W Corsair.
- Temperatures: Firefaces have space to breath, PC & core temperatures are around 45 C.
- System is not overclocked.  Memory is checked. All other programs work great.
- I've tried to disable one by one devices in Device Manager.
- Disabling network: no influence.
- DPC Latency Checker: Absolute Maximum is 135 us.
- Latency Monitor: Highest DPC routine execution time: 210 us (Wdf01000.sys). Highest ISR routine execution time: 29 us (iaStor.sys). Pagefaults: 0 during test (starting & stopping playback in Sonar). Most Clockticks: Wdf01000.sys - 689464, 0,22461 us.
- All Buffer Sizes from 64 to 1024.
- Different routing of clock signal. Simplified clock routing: ADAT2 -> Fireface1,  Fireface1---word clock---> Fireface2.

Does somebody run two Firefaces with Sonar 8.5.3? How did you do that? What hardware do you use?


PC:
Asus P6T
Intel i7 950
12 GB DDR3 (OCX)
Ati Radeon HD 4350 (silent)
USB: iLok, Frontier Tranzport, wireless Logitech keyboard & mouse
Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium
Cakewalk Sonar 8.5.3 32-bit, Producer Edition

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

I know we are talking about Sonar, but to make solving the issue easier: What happens in other audio applications (like Reaper) with your setup?

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

I'll try Reaper next time I've got free time in studio.
I have a small, very tiny intuition this has something to do with the way Sonar opens converstaion to the sound driver. I make tests with older 8.3.1 version, too, because it's audio engine is older, different code. 8.3.1 worked so well in the old XP32 environment.

Is it normal that arming audio track is slow, half a second or more? Arming 26 tracks is noticeably slow process.

sonarmods.com

4 (edited by 19 frets 2010-09-29 11:58:36)

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Panu:

I am running Windows 7 (64 bit), Sonar 8.5.3 (32 bit) and two FF800's with no problems.  I am using the latest production FF firmware v 2.77.  My hardware is an Asus M4A89GTD PRO/USB3 mobo with AMD Quad Core Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition 3.4 Ghz processor, 8Gb Corsair Dominator DDR3 memory.  I mostly record classical ensembles and acoustic music in the field using up to eight mics/tracks simultaneously through the two RME units using the on board preamps.  I mostly record on location with the two FF800's on a Dell M1530 laptop and then bring the raw tracks back to the studio to mix and master on the Asus system.  I have been very happy with the FF800's and Sonar works well most of the time except for the odd anomaly that just seems to be part of Sonar these days.  But basically, everything is working very well.  Have you tried the v 2.77 drivers.  I have successfully worked with some of the Sonar demo files that contain a large number of tracks, some fully loaded with a number of effects and soft synths, and my system has not really even broken a sweat yet. Hope this helps.  cool

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

By the way.  Arming tracks is almost instantaneous for me, but my set up is fairly simple compared to some.

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

I only open Sonar for testing so I did not check the Arming delay yet, but I do have a delay of about half a second when starting Playback in WDM mode. Not so when using ASIO, and not when using WDM in Reaper.

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Is Asus P6T OK motherboard? I can replace any component if it's not Sonar or Firefaces.

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

What are your buffer sizes set to in Sonar?  Have you tried dropping back to v 2.77 of the firmware?

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Buffer sizes in Sonar: default (256). Yesterday I tried 128's.
Dropping back: added to the list. Older driver versions caused BSOD's in Win7, though.

sonarmods.com

10 (edited by 19 frets 2010-09-29 12:15:56)

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

I am also using driver ver. 2.992.  I am not read of any particular problem with your Asus motherboard.

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

How about Fireface unit versions?
The first unit's version is 1.0. Second is newer. I don't remember the version but it is not 1.0.

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Tests with Fireface driver 2.992

* First time arming whole track folder containing 22 mono & stereo tracks hanged Sonar over one minute. After arming recording did not work - nothing came in.
* Firefaces power off & back on: now armed track, recording and playback work perfectly.
* But unarming track folder hangs Sonar again. After one minute of waiting tracks get unarmed but audio engine does not work anymore.
* Note: There's no delay in arming tracks when project is loaded. Delay comes only when arming is done manually.
* Note 2: I turned power off from Firefaces when Sonar was open and audio engine dead. Sonar found Firefaces again. Arming invidual tracks was super-fast but no track could be unarmed! After a short while Sonar crashed with error code c0000005.

---

Fireface units:
1: Revision 1.00, bar code 22376811
2: Revision nor marked, bar code 22393798

---



Sonar version 8.3.1

* No delay in arming all tracks at once. Recording works perfectly. I was able to record 7 x 22 mono tracks before dropout (154 tracks playing at the same time!)
* Unarming: no delay. And audio engine is still alive.
* BUT: Shortly after that audio engine hanged. I restarted 8.3.1 and made a short test recording. Some tracks looked like [img align=this]http://www.avaruusankat.com/etc/RME/failed_audio_recording.jpg[/img]. After restart all works again.
* I tried to arm and unarm all 22 tracks *) as many times as possible. First four times were OK, fifth time arming lasted over half minute. And after that audio engine did not work anymore. *) Two units were in use but all inputs were from 1st unit.

* Quick arm / unarm test in the same project for Sonar 8.5.3. 
  Unarm 1 OK.
  Arm 1 OK.
  Unarm 2 OK.
  Arm 2 FAIL. (Sonar not responding for two minutes).
  If I start playback it can't be stopped (and no audio comes out).
   Additionally, after this Sonar crashed again with Exception code c0000005.


Conclusion:
8.3.1 is more reliable than 8.5.3 when using two Fireface 800 units but it's not entirely crash-proof.

Coming soon results with Reaper...

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

First tests with Reaper:
Everything works perfectly. Arming is fast as light and I can use two Fireface units at the same time.

sonarmods.com

14 (edited by panu 2010-09-29 19:11:40)

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

I installed 64-bit version of Sonar 8.5.3.  It does not hang the same way as the 32-bit version does. Arming one track takes half a second but when playback is on arming is 10x faster(!). 
I can't make audio engine tilt.

All my problems are 32-bit Sonar related.

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

64-bit Sonar has zero problems with playback in longer test. I will use it whenever I need both units.
It's not possible to go entirely to 64-bit Sonar because I've got too many 64-bit incompatible plug-ins in daily use :-/.

-Panu

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Sorry to hear of your problems, but at least you have a work around.  It is possible to run two versions of Sonar on the same machine.  You could run Sonar 8.3.1 (32-bit) with your 32 bit plugs and Sonar 8.5.3 (64-bit) with your 64 bit plugs.  I know it is not ideal and there should be a reason why the 32 bit version does not run.  Are you sure you have everything exactly the same between the different versions you tested?

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Aud.ini was in default values except friendly names for I/O and Scheduling model was set to 2 (as I have over 2 cores in my system). MIDI I/O was identical. Test project was the same all the time.
Audio / Options tab:
Playback I/O 256
Record I/O 256
Driver Mode: ASIO
Dithering: --none--

[ ] Share Drivers With Other Programs
[x] Use Multiprocessing Engine
[x] Use MMCSS
[x] Play Effect tails
[x] Always open All Devices
[ ] Remove DC Offset

(o) Trigger & Freewheel

Record Pre-allocfate File: 60
Fade On Start: 20
Fade On, Stop: 90.

Tomorrow I test if fresh install makes any difference to 8.5.3 32-bit.

You're right 64 and 32 bit Sonar versions can be installed at the same time. However, using the same project file with different versions is tricky because all plug-ins don't work in both environments. Nevertheless, I'm happy 64-bit version offers workaround!

-Panu

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Did you try using JBridge instead of BitBridge to load the problematic 32-bit plugins into the 64-bit version? What happens when you disable multiprocessor support? and/or MMCSS?

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

32 bit plug-ins that prevent me from going to 64 bit only are Focusrite LiquidMix, Waves R Collection and Waves GTR3.

Quote from http://www.focusrite.com/support/liquid/liquid_mix:

The following DAW/Platform combinations are not supported by Liquid Mix.
-64bit Sonar (no change)

Waves: no 64-bit support. Yesterday I tried shell2vst but it didn't work for my (old) Waves versions.

I doubt JBridge can help if Plugin Manager does not find LiquidMix and Waves?

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Since you configure JBridge via the Plugin Manager you at least need to have the plugin listed there. But it also allows you to add plugins manually and some other magic that might help you find the plugins.

JBridge is acting as a separate host and transfers data between itself and Sonar via Inter-Process Communication (IPC). That means that your 32-bit plugins *are* running in a 32-bit host then and just send their data in and out to Sonar. You could also use something like Port Audio or Jack to do it all manually, JBridge is more about convenience.

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

JBridge sounds good if it really keeps 32-bit plugins in their own sandbox. I'll give it a try.

Today I had my first 64-bit Sonar recording session. A band made studio live recording (drums, bass, two guitars, vocals). Two Firefaces, ~30 audio tracks (44.1/24). Fireface buffer was 64 samples whole day because I needed to keep Guitar Rig 4 input monitoring on for the other guitarist. Operation between Sonar & audio driver was flawless and forgot to worry of such a low buffer. 

I'm happy I stayed away from PT HD3. RME + Sonar rock harder :-).
Btw, thanks (again) for all help and suggestions. I really appreciate!

sonarmods.com

Re: Sonar 8.5.3 & 2 x FF800

Glad you got it going.  RME, Sonar and Win 7 are great, when they work right!!!!  :-)