I guess that's the problem: whose fault is it, NI's or RME's?

Within the NI applications I have disabled all unused channels. For example, I configure Reaktor to use only playback channels 1 & 2, and Kore to use only 3 & 4. All other channels are given -Not connected- status Reaktor and Kore.

As far as I am concerned, the (cheaper) Kore audio interface does the job transparently: any number of ASIO clients can use the same Kore playback channel. I don't know how NI have implemented this but I think it's great. Now I can play an mp3 on Winamp and play along with the software synths, all handled by one single audio interface. I am surprised that a cheaper device can offer such convenient functionality, whilst the FF400 does not.

Unfortunately Kore only has two inputs and two outputs so I still need an audio interface, and I hope there is a way round this.

If you are reading this post and you use Komplete 4 and a Fireface 400, it'd be useful to know how you got on with this combo.

Thanks!

Thanks for your reply, Dandruff. Do you use any Native Instruments products and RME ASIO drivers? I think the FF400 is great and I am not trying to blame anyone, but I am really stuck because this particular combination does not work, which means I cannot use my set-up the way I'd like to.

The audio interface is a very important part of the studio, sure, but the whole point of  the studio is to make music. I don't care how it gets to the speakers, and therefore any  audio interface that does the job is OK for the task. However, only Native Instruments softsynths sound like Native Instruments softsynths, i.e. there is no alternative, and therefore I have to stick with NI.

I sent an email to Native Instruments yesterday regarding this issue but they haven't replied yet. I will go to Digital Village later to see how other other NI + audio interface combinations work and seek advice. Any comments will be much appreciated.

Exactly !!! Yesterday I conducted some experiments to test my Fireface's ASIO multiclient capabilities, but this time I did not use any Native Instruments applications. The goal was to have Cubase, Reason (in stand-alone mode, i.e. run Reason first then Cubase) and Winamp run at the same time.

First I will say that I found the behaviour of my Fireface 400 very unpredictable and inconsistent.

Getting the three applications to work simultaneously was a case of trial and error. I got crackle, dropouts, crashes... I some times could hear Reason on channels 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 at the same time, although I had specified that it routed audio to channels 3 & 4 only. Some times Reason would be heard but not Cubase. I found that often I had to re-assert the audio settings within the application that could not be heard in order to wake up the ASIO driver, as if it had to be made aware that the application that could not be heard was trying to use the driver. This involved opening the audio settings dialogue in Cubase or Reason and simply click the OK button, as I mentioned in my previous posts.

When both apps could be heard I tried to add Winamp into the equation without much success, i got an error message that said something like "Audio driver error". Again, I was using a separate playback channel and identical sample rate as per the user manual.

Finally I got the three to work but it was such a fluke that I still don't know how I did it.

I apologize for being vague about how I conducted the tests, but that's because I tried so many routes that I cannot remember exactly what I did. Next time I will try to be more methodical and record my moves.

Afterwards, I used Kore ASIO and I got the three applications running simultaneously at the first attempt. I even added Reaktor, Absynth and Kontakt into the equation and everything still worked, so I don't think it's fair to blame NI.

Hello,

I have to doubt that you configured Cubase correctly. It can be set to use specific input and output channels very easily by use of the VST connections dialog (F4). ONLY by this dialog!

I will post a more detailed reply why we think that uncontrolled digital mixing in the driver is consumer heaven and pro's nightmare later.

I look forward to this, thanks!

multiclient working fine here. no problems.

...also here.
I am wondering that using Mediaplayer with Spdif out and Foobar also with Spdif out works also at the same time. The only downgrade is when I set the volume control in Foobar to -100 (full attenuation) the sound gets distorted like a feedback. Matthias?
Beside this it works great using different channels assigned...so no problems.

regards

Zapp

Well they just did. Here is what they have to say about the problems I described in my first post:

Right, so what does he actually mean? I have been using a utility called MIDI YOKE which can create many virtual MIDI ports so that more than one softsynth in stand-alone mode responds to MIDI messages from the same MIDI keyboard. Cantabile must be a similar thing but for ASIO instead of MIDI. Seemingly, the functionality of Cantabile is natively provided by the Kore driver, and therefore it is possible to play lots softsynths and Winamp simultaneously using Kore.

Perhaps RME have opted to exclude this feature from their drivers, for the reasons that Matthias has promised to outline regarding "...uncontrolled digital mixing in the driver...".

As you all are probably know, Cubase allows you to run many VST instruments concurrently (otherwise what would be the point of VST instruments?). I don't know how it does it but probably a technique similar to the one used in Cantabile is employed to make this possible.

I will experiment with Cantabile tonight, although I am totally not keen on stacking utilities this way because it can only make things more complex and unstable. It's just extra stuff to worry about. Anyway, here is a link to Cantabile http://www.toptensoftware.com/cantabile/ in case you want to test it too.

Matthias seemed to imply in his earlier post that the Fireface is a more professional audio interface because it does not allow uncontrolled digital mixing. Having added control can be a plus at times, but I think users should be given the option of uncontrolled digital mixing as well. I personally would put it to good use! Would this be a very difficult thing to add to the current Fireface drivers?

He confirms what was suspected above - that the software in standalone mode will grab all ASIO channels and not let other ASIO software coexist.

No, the way an ASIO application handles plugins and the way an ASIO driver deals with multiclient operation is something completely different. There is nothing "excluded" here.

The important part about this is that the plugin's ability to directly communicate with the ASIO driver (as in standalone mode) is simply not active here. The plugin is only being utilized as a plugin, Cubase handles evrything ASIO. This can not be compared to what the driver does.

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Maybe this has to do with Firewire (and Fireface) versus PCI based (HDSP-series) hardware?
I repeat, no problems with the newest drivers of the HDSP....
I am using old Digiface with newest drivers.

regards

Zapp

What am I meant to do with this information? :roll What we really need to find out is:

- Has anybody been able to use the Fireface 400 under Windows XP as a true ASIO multiclient host, that is, the way the user manual describes?

- Are there any audio interfaces out there that support true ASIO multiclient operation?

UPDATE: me.compositor has removed his silly posts, thanks!

Oh, by the way, I figured out that it is possible to run multiple instances of Pro-53 (and possibly other Native Instruments softsynths), althougth only one can be heard at a time if I use the Fireface 400. This means two things:

1. Native Instruments must have done it on purpuse, i.e., Pro 53 was designed so that multiple instances could be run. If this would have been a problem, surely NI would have disabled the ability to run multiple instances like many other vendors do. The fact that this is possible with the Kore hardware reinforces my argument.

2. RME could purchase a copy of Pro-53 or even Kore and try running multiple instances on a Windows XP system with a Fireface 400. This might uncover and highlight other issues that RME are not aware of.

Sorry to repeat myself, but I fail to see an "issue". ASIO Multiclient operation (also ASIO/MME) works and has always worked.
Why do you think "people weren't expecting it to work on these particular cards"?

Is this Firewire 400 or 800?

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

How does this go with your quote from NI above? "Running standalones together is not working well under windows."
The fact that you can start several instances does not automatically imply they will all work, esp. if the software seems to grab all ASIO channels in standalone mode.

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

I tested Cubase and Samplitude. And all I was trying to show is that ASIO Multiclient operation works in principle. Not that I think this needs proof, but anyhow.

How so? Did you make sure that WL was using SPDIF only (nothing else active)?
Don't have Logic 5 here, sorry.

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

PS: About the pans... There was a there also. Don't take the pan too serious, please.

It's the OS.

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

I just remembered one important detail that might have killed Bob's and Manuel's tests - the interleaved option for WDM. If this is on, then using the Media Player will crash 8 channels into your setup, not 2 - as explained in detail in the manual.

I have spent the evening trying all possible configurations and I have had all sorts of problems. I will put a comparison of the Fireface 400 versus the Kore audio interface on my FTP server in the form of an Excel spreadsheet, describing how the two interfaces performed under similar circumstances.

Something is veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery wrong. I am spending more time with the FF400 than with my wife and the Fireface is preventing me from making music. With Kore I was up and running in seconds. I am giving up. I have just disconnected the FF400 from my rig and will try to get an unlikely refund from Digital Village. Failing that, if anyone is interested, my Fireface might be up for sale on eBay very soon.

This piece of hardware is breathtakingly troublesome and I have already wasted too much time. I am ever so keen to produce music but I just can't with this thing. RME products are built to last and use top-quality components etc, but with bad drivers the FF400 is no more than a pretty brick

I appreciate the participation that this thread has received, but I just feel that this is a loosing battle.

a strange thing i've noticed is:

multiclient operation with itunes or win media player set to FF400 analog 1&2 (via windows audio device dialog) and nuendo playing back on any other output did NOT WORK for me.

all other variations I tested (itunes to 3&4, nuendo to 1&2 - itunes to 3&4, nuendo to 5&6 and so on) worked perfectly.

ANY EXPLANATION TO THIS?

regards, hjalti

(win XP, fireface 400, nuendo 3.1)

That is analogous to "I didn't know s*x could be this good". Therefore I will try doing what Bob did. I still think the Fireface is a fantastic unit, and honestly if I could get it to work like it says on the user manual I would be extremely pleased.

I apologize for being a bit mean in my previous post ...

Which is one reason why I am stuck with driver 2.94 (3) for my HDSP9652 in Nuendo. All the WDM drivers have caused me major problems, especially when trying to use mutiple apps. The "share ASIO driver" feature in Nuendo may work with the RME WDM drivers, but not very well. God help me if I want to adjust something on the UAD control panel - play stops. Oh no - I want to use Melodyne - play stops. What about Acid WITHOUT Rewire? Play stops. Same for Sound Forge, etc, etc., etc., etc. The loss of MME drivers in the newer WDM (which Mathias boldly boasts will "never be added again") is a huge loss for the end user and a big mistake in my opinion. Sharing ASIO drivers is a concept that has no rhyme or reason - it NEVER works properly without side effects, resulting in loss of work flow.

I cannot figure out why MME was dropped in the WDM drivers. Who or what were the beneficiaries? What new features that were NOT in the 2.94 drivers are in there, and are they worth the loss of MME driver ease alongside ASIO? Or is there some sort of Sonar or Mac compatibility issue that drove this policy?

Ted,

Not sure which feature you are referring to exactly. But unless WDM is being used by another application or by the OS, it should not interfere with ASIO operation.

Sorry if this appears to be a silly question, but have you activated the "Release ASIO driver in the background" option in Nuendo by any chance? I'd assume you are using Melodyne, Sound Forge, etc. with ASIO as well, aren't you?

I have a suspicion that this may be user or configuration error of some sort - the fact that there is WDM does not have a direct influence on the way ASIO works (and neither does MME). Mind that ASIO multiclient operation requires the use of separate channels for each application, which must be deactivated in other ASIO applications (channels can be mixed subsequently in Totalmix).

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

I'm afraid I don't quite see the connection... I've only got Nuendo 2 here, but I can leave the option unchecked and Nuendo will happily record and play back in the background, and that is with the WDM drivers installed... This is not an issue of ASIO Multiclient operation or WDM drivers as such.

Maybe you've selected the channels you wish to use for Nuendo as Windows standard device also?

Because this is not a general issue or problem of the WDM drivers.

Playback in the background works on my machine... An "MME feature" will not help here, your problem must be elsewhere... Mail or call me, then we'll try to find out what causes this.

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME