• Registered: 2011-06-01
  • Posts: 45

Topic: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

I am new to digital recording. I have a UFX which I plan to connect to a PC thru firewire running Protools 9.  As I read it the UFX will pass 16 channels of 24/192.  To do this i must/can input an additional four 24/192 channels. Two thru the AES inputs and two thru an ADAT input (quad speeded).

My questions are:

Can I use ADAT 1 and ADAT 2 inputs for four channels of 24/192?

What would be the best RME devices to use to add the four 24/192 channels-on a price/performqnce basis-two Babyfaces?

Should I/can I run another device into the PC's USB while the UFX goes thru the firewire input and "merge" somehow in Pro Tools? 

Forgive my ignorance I have decades of analogue mixing experience but no digital background.

BB



,

Thank You!

  • Knut
  • Knut
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  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 1,618

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

Can I use ADAT 1 and ADAT 2 inputs for four channels of 24/192?

Yes. Both inputs could be used as ADAT input with S/MUX4 and 192 kHz. This will reduce the number of channels from 8 to 2 in every input. Keep in mind that the 2nd optical I/O will only work alternative to the AES/EBU I/O when used as SPDIF I/O.

What would be the best RME devices to use to add the four 24/192 channels-on a price/performqnce basis-two Babyfaces?

This is an interesting idea. But the perfect companion for the UFX is the ADI-8 QS. This is RME's no-compromise high-end converter. The QS can transmit 4 channels of 24/192 via two ADAT ports or 8 via AES/EBU. Two Babyfaces should be work in theory with S/MUX4 and the UFX, but this is a very creative setup, which will need three USB ports.

Should I/can I run another device into the PC's USB while the UFX goes thru the firewire input and "merge" somehow in Pro Tools?

Pro Tools as any other ASIO application can only use one ASIO driver at the same time. So you need another interface which uses the same driver. Example: If the UFX is running with the USB driver you can use a Babyface or a Fireface UC at the same time in Pro Tools (not possible with the UFX FireWire driver). All interfaces have to be clocked via a digital connection (word clock master/slave). So in this case the Babyface/UC gets the clock from the UFX via the optical cable. It's also possible to use both interfaces as plain ADAT converters for the UFX.

best regards
Knut

  • Registered: 2011-06-01
  • Posts: 45

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

Thank you for such a prompt reply! Because of my ignorance of matters digital I will essay to explain my understanding of your patient post. i understand that in any case I would have only four, additional inputs into a UFX since only 2 out of the the three inputs (two ADATS and one AES) may be used for 24/192 operation.

The "perfect companion" to add the, permissable four more channels of 24/192 thru the UFX is recommended as the eight line in ADI-8 QS. But, here in the US, two babyfaces cost only $1500 and yield four mic (or line) inputs while the ADI-8 QS is $2600 and has no mic preamps.  Imputing the cost of four high quality mic preamps (for many configurations) raises the system price even further.

So the economics of adding 4 extra channels thru the UFX seem to be daunting since, as I understand the post, the ADi-8 QS can only make use of four line inputs thru the UFX (assuming that the single AES input of the UFX can only pass two 24/192 channels).

If this is correct then a second UFX would be the, next most efficient (economical) choice (4 mic/line inputs @ 24/192 for $2100) if it could be slaved thru the master UFX or "paralled" using two USBs.  However In reading this forum two UFXs is not considered an "elegant" path to 16 tracks of 24/19.

So please Forgive me for belaboring the obvious again: Would three USBs (two on the PC and one more as an e card adapter) then accomodate two Babyfaces and one UFX for a combination of eight mic and eight line inputs?

BB

  • Knut
  • Knut
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  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 1,618

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

... as I understand the post, the ADi-8 QS can only make use of four line inputs thru the UFX (assuming that the single AES input of the UFX can only pass two 24/192 channels).

I think the QS adds 6 x 24/192 channels - 2 x 2 ADAT SMUX4 + 2 x AES/EBU channels to the UFX. But you are right that it does not provides the needed preamps for your setup.

If this is correct then a second UFX would be the, next most efficient (economical) choice (4 mic/line inputs @ 24/192 for $2100) if it could be slaved thru the master UFX or "paralled" using two USBs.

Yes. This setup should work and provides a great flexibility (including a backup UFX). The 2nd UFX can be configured as stand-alone converter with 6 x 192 input/output (2 x AES/EBU + 4 x ADAT via SMUX4) - including four additional UFX preamps.

Would three USBs (two on the PC and one more as an e card adapter) then accomodate two Babyfaces and one UFX for a combination of eight mic and eight line inputs?

Yes, this should work in theory. But I don't know if anybody tried this before. The USB driver should drive the UFX and the Babyfaces. With the 32 channel limit of Pro Tools 9 for 3rd party interfaces the Babyfaces can work as 192 kHz ADAT converters for the UFX. I'am not sure about the setup with the UFX on a FireWire port (FireWire driver) plus the USB driver for the Babyfaces at the same time. But you can be the first who tries such a combination.

Keep in mind the Babyface is not a stand-alone converter. It will need not only a USB cable for the necesary power but the driver and a running TotalMix to get all settings and routings.

best regards
Knut

  • Registered: 2011-05-04
  • Posts: 249

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

Hello,
This is to OP, but I am just curious what is the demand to record @192kHz. I've been using 96kHz sample rate, and I've never tried 192, even I know my UFX is able to do that.

As a side note, I believe UA 4-710 has 4 channel (preamps) with 192kHz capability, but I don't have direct experience, so I can't tell that fits with your needs.

  • Registered: 2011-06-01
  • Posts: 45

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

The UA 4-710 seems to be is a fine preamp/converter but I was swayed by the possibility of 4 mic and two line tracks with a 2nd UFX used as a converter.  There seems to be some uncertainty as to whether both the ADATs and the AES inputs of the UFX will, each, accept two 24/192 digital streams for a total of 6 simultaneous tracks added to the native 4mic and 8 line.  This would bring the master UFX track count up to 18 @ 24/192.  The UFX is also smaller and would be a back-up too. No doubt I will make adjustments in the gear package as time goes by.

I intend to "archive" a band composed, mostly, of men from 70 to 90 who played in the most renown swing bands of yesteryear. A listing of their work experience sends chills up the spine of anyone who has even a dim interest in the swing era. They play, today, as if they stepped out of a time machine from the 40's.

The idea is to preserve the consummate achievements of the over 750 years of musical experience of these master  musicians.  I want to make it possible for others to have access to these swing immortals with multi track archives recorded in the best possible quality (for use on more advanced equipment in the decades to come).

I can hear the difference between DSD and DVD "A" on the $100K monitor system I built.  So I thought I would begin my first recordings with 24/192 equipment.  If/when I get a substantial on site L/R Mix I will likely buy a DSD recorder for that purpose.  As always I am appreciative of any suggestions that anyone has to improve my digital technique.

  • Registered: 2007-05-09
  • Posts: 174

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

SoundHound wrote:

The idea is to preserve the consummate achievements of the over 750 years of musical experience of these master  musicians.  I want to make it possible for others to have access to these swing immortals with multi track archives recorded in the best possible quality (for use on more advanced equipment in the decades to come).

"Best possible" doesn't necessarily imply "ridiculously high sample rate", particularly if the only manipulation of the wav files is to be a simple mix-down.

  • Registered: 2011-06-01
  • Posts: 45

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

Methinks that you feel (from experience?) that 24/96 would be ample?  If so I will be pleased to regress after I get some real digital recording experience.  Thank you for the guidance!

  • Registered: 2007-05-09
  • Posts: 174

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

You may hear a difference between 44.1KHz and 96KHz, though it may be more about how a particular unit performs at the different setting than about any intrinsic quality difference.  I think 192KHz is offered merely because the chip does it, and the marketing department feels it looks good.

You will find others who feel music of the type you mention can only be properly recorded to analogue tape and distributed on vinyl.

And you say "I am new to digital recording".  With all respect, the quality of your result will be limited ENORMOUSLY more by your recording skills than by the medium you record to.  Are you experienced at other ways of recording?

  • Registered: 2011-06-01
  • Posts: 45

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

I am enthusiastic about current non linear recording (wasn't too crazy about DAT for production dialogue) which makes this project possible.  The 24/96 test tracks on the Zoom H4n with XYed Neuman KM185 over the brass section far surpass the quality of my more than respectable turntable/cartridge combo and legacy/modern vinyl.

I was a production sound mixer for 37 years and am very familiar with tape, analogue circuits, microphones and microphone techniques (although certainly, not all).   We are drifting afield from RME concerns so maybe you would consider contacting me at: bisenz@sbcglobal.net (Google Bruce Bisenz for my background).  Thank you for the benefit of your experience.

BB

  • Registered: 2011-11-10
  • Posts: 3

Re: 16 channels of 24/192 with ufx

I have 2 RME UFXs,I am using windows 7/64  all drivers and firmware are up to date on both RME units. Configurations for the 2nd  UFX were initially loaded to unit and saved prior to disconnecting from USB.
I am  confused about  clocking  issues I am having.
I am running the 1st UFX  in internal (master clock mode) and this is connected to my computer by USB.
The 2nd  UFX  is being used  in stand  alone mode. It is not connected to the computer
The second UFX is set to word clock sync  and is being clocked by a coaxial  word clock cable coming from the Master  UFX 1  word clock out coaxial to to the 2nd UFXs  word clock in coaxial terminal. The 75 ohm termination light is activated on the 2nd UFX (I am only using the ADAT 1  ADAT 2  optical outs on the  2nd UFX (stand alone set to word clock) to deliver ADAT 1 AND ADAT  2  optical  inputs to the 1st UFX (set to internal or master ,and the only unit connected to my computer by USB)
  I must be screwed up with this or something because on 2nd UFX, I see in the front screen" WCK" and the on the 1st  UFX  I see "INT", Which I think is good ,but when I change sample rates on the computer through the RME driver only the 1st UFX  changes sample rates . The 2nd   UFX does not  change front screens except  sometimes to  change to  a completely different sample  rate or   sometimes not change at all. The ADAT  sync shown in the driver syncs at  44 while all this is happening. Basically I am trying to use the 2nd RME  as a converter that will adjust to my chosen sample rates by the driver on the 1st UFX  by word clock.. I know I must not be understanding a concept or two! What am I doing wrong ? Sorry to seem so stupid .
. Any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks in advance.
Anniedog