1 Topic by Retrospekta (edited by Retrospekta 2012-04-26 20:52:25)

  • Registered: 2012-04-14
  • Posts: 7

Topic: very high latency with FF800 in ableton after upgrading from ff400

ok, i have been silly enough to change my lovely ff400 for a ff800 because i needed more ins... now i find even on a small project of about 10 tracks of 96k audio even though just monitoring, i cannot go below 1024 samples and have a latency of around 24.1ms. with the 400 this did not happen. even when i am going to 48khz i still and at 256 samples i still have clicks and cracks even though i only move the loop marker tool around... and about 14ms of latency time...

I just find this not acceptable from an interface that retails at 1200€. I just had a presonus 8pre for a week, which i had directly comparing to the ff400. it had slightly higher latency than the ff400, but nothing compared to the ff800 - and most importantly, cost me 349€!!! but i gave it back because it would not record at 192khz.

now the tech stuff

ableton suite8
macpro 4 core 2.8 8gb dual channel memory from 2011
OSZ 10.6.8
macbook pro
intel dual core 2 2.55 4gb ram from 2010
osx 10.6.8

the ff400 run perfectly on both machines. no changes to hardware or software have been done and i tested the ff800 on both machines with the same problem as the result.

changed fw cables, no change
used fw800 and fw400 connection, no change

cleaned hhd and repared permissions on both machines, no change.

installed the latest drivers, latest version of daw, latest verion of waves gold, repared permissions again.. no change

reinstalled EVERYTHING new on the mac pro, no change.

now, Daniel Fuchs told me to install reaper and create a project in there to see if the problem persists.. i find this rather sad for a company that sells top of the shelf sound cards to refer to a program that hardly anybody uses -  at least I know nobody who does commercial stuff with that - on top of that i dont know the ins and outs of that program..

I am starting to regret two things:
- having sold my fantastic ff400
- having spend double that money to get something thats not working and until now, has only caused me loss of time, and no joy.

its been about 3 or 4 weeks now... and all i get is excuses. i am not very happy.

any help is very very welcome.

Thank you all

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,782

Re: very high latency with FF800 in ableton after upgrading from ff400

Retrospekta wrote:

ok, i have been silly enough to change my lovely ff400 for a ff800 because i needed more ins... now i find even on a small project of about 10 tracks of 96k audio even though just monitoring, i cannot go below 1024 samples and have a latency of around 24.1ms. with the 400 this did not happen. even when i am going to 48khz i still and at 256 samples i still have clicks and cracks even though i only move the loop marker tool around... and about 14ms of latency time...
I just find this not acceptable from an interface that retails at 1200€.

As I have clearly pointed out in my various mails, there is no inherent technical difference between the FF400 and the 800 that would explain a higer latency. Neither of the two devices "has" a latency of its own.
The main difference is the higher channel count, but as your test confirms, reducing FW bandwidth on the 800 does not seem to solve the problem here.
Apart from that, the driver and basic FW technology of the two are the same, therefore they should also behave the same.

now, Daniel Fuchs told me to install reaper and create a project in there to see if the problem persists.. i find this rather sad for a company that sells top of the shelf sound cards to refer to a program that hardly anybody uses -  at least I know nobody who does commercial stuff with that - on top of that i dont know the ins and outs of that program..

I believe I explained my point about Reaper quite clearly, and I'm not sure why you do not mention that here and create an incorrect impression instead.
Reaper is a well respected, stable and well performing piece of audio software. The number of people who use it is totally iirelevant to this case. Contrary to what your comment insinuates, I am not suggesting you dump Ableton in favour of Reaper. I am just suggesting you use it for a test. If latency issues are easily reproducible, we may have to look at the FF800 more closely, as in the individual device possibly. If not, however, your Ableton configuration may need closer scrutiny.

If you feel uneasy about Reaper or unfamiliar with it, you are free to try other DAW software for comparison. The advantage of Reaper is that you can test it for free with no restrictions of a demo version.


I am starting to regret two things:
- having sold my fantastic ff400
- having spend double that money to get something thats not working and until now, has only caused me loss of time, and no joy.

I would suggest to consider the fact that it is more likely that the unit is the victim of an issue on your computer, not the cause. In other words, it is not the FF "not working", but something preventing it (and the whole system) from working correctly. The fact that you hear the obvious symptoms at the FF's audio outputs does not indicate that they actually originate there.

its been about 3 or 4 weeks now... and all i get is excuses. i am not very happy.

I was not making "excuses" in my mails. I was pointing out the above facts, which are meant as a means to close in on the actual cause.

Have you made sure the FF800 is running on the latest firmware? Have you tried resetting/deleting audio preferences in Ableton, just to make sure the program no longer "remembers" the FF400 in any way?

I'm personally not too familiar with Ableton, I will admit. Possibly others will chime in.

It is unfortunate that the FF400 is no longer available for a test.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2012-04-14
  • Posts: 7

Re: very high latency with FF800 in ableton after upgrading from ff400

yes, daniel, as i explained in our various mails, i completely reinstalled my mac pro because of that issue to make sure there is absolutely no problem, even though there was no change at all on that system except a switch in interface. by reformating, changing partitions a few times so really everything old is useless on the drive, and putting it back to one partition as it was before, i find myself with the same issue but having lost valuable time. today i was speaking with the shop where i bought it. they told me that the distributor will change it but they want proof of the fact that i have been in touch with you. so i will forward them all messages. Daniel, i am on the verge of a contract and i am not going to loos this because of some problem with a interface. i have been patient as well and i have spend 1200€ on an interface due to the trust that i gained in your company by the performance of another interface that I bought just over a year ago, the ff400 which cost me 800€. and i was planning in getting some adda as well to use the adats on the ff800, as i told you, my main reason for the upgrade was for the need of much more inputs.. i was even thnking of buying another ff800 before i realised all the trouble i am having now.. for now, you put a stop to that. i am not rockefeller. for me, spending 2000€ on interfaces is serious money that could be going into other things. i need to have this solved asap, tomorrow i will forward the exchange to the distributor so they have prove of our contact because thats what they want so they can swap it. its very simple: when i sold the ff400, i deleted all the caches and all entries of the ff400 in my system, i followed ableton instruction for deleting cache files and rme instructions for deleting rme files. then i installed the latest verion of drivers downloaded from rme page. no results, i erase all my system so you are happy and i can say that all the installation is new, you insist that there must be a problem with my system, do you want to tell this APPLE?  my system worked perfectly with the ff400, and to the contrary to what you told me that the converters and firewire chip is the same in both ff400 and ff800, i had other people telling me that the fw chip of the 400 is newer and better. and on your facebook page i posted about half a dozen links of people that have had problems with the ff800 in different DAWS as well, so much to you telling me that there was never any indication of latency problem with the ff800.

the shame of this all is that i had a very good relationship whith the shop until now and they get all stressed out about it because they know that i am on the verge of signing a contract and now i cannot produce the way i should be able to with a 1200€ interface.

thank you.

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,782

Re: very high latency with FF800 in ableton after upgrading from ff400

Hello,

unless I am overlooking something totally obvious (in which case, mea maxima culpa) or there is something wrong with your FF800 in hardware (-> warranty), then it would really help all of us in tracking down the issue if you could try to accept some basic things (and possibly also not bring up the FF800's price tag again and again..).

I've said it before: the FF800, in all the years of its existence, has not been known to have any inherent "latency issue" that the FF400 would have "solved" or even improved.
If any of the links you have posted on FB concisively prove otherwise (other than hearsay about an "improved FW chip"), please do let me know. I'm afraid I do not follow the FB page, busy enough with support here and by mail and phone.

Obviously, some people with FF800s will experience "lateny problems". But then, this does not prove that the device has got a general problem, because so will people with totally different hardware and software setups or even OS platforms. You will also see people with Ableton and non-RME audio devices experience issues, and (gasp...) even people using a FF400. Both of this can be found in this thread on an Ableton forum...
Here is another example.

Please also consider that the audio device can not actively cause high latency. Such a phenomenon (or the inability to run a DAW at low latencies without dropouts etc.) simply means that for some reason or another, the CPU is unable to handle/render all required instruments/effects within the latency time provided by the selected buffer size. When dropouts occur, they do so before audio is being passed on to the audio device. The audio device can and will not cause an otherwise intact audio signal to break up (this won't happen unless something is wrong with the device or there is an external influence like [hypothetical] insufficient Firewire performance or e.g. WLAN components disturbing).

Have you tried reproducing similar issues with another audio software of your choice?
Would your retailer be willing to let you test a FF400 (or second FF800) in the same setup?

Some hints on optimizing Ableton may be found e.g. here.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website