Hi,

Just taken delivery, and very impressed so far.

However I cannot work out how to link an3/4, an5/6 and an7/8's levels to the main (an1/2) outputs level.

Any advice?

Alan

And it's one of thickest manuals I've come across recently!

Have managed to figure it out, and now have all my analogue outputs linked and controlled from the ARC, and have snapshot calibrated levels set up. Even DIM works - brilliant!

For some reason though, I can get fader groups to work properly, but not mute groups.

Really though, RME should wake up and realise that a lot of people use their multi-channel interfaces for surround work, and get that monitor section actually useful. Digicheck does surround metering and R128 measurement, so this is all that's needed to make this THE go to interface for those of us working in sound for picture.

I've been using DAWs for 25 years now, and bar the Neves I've owned, this is the nicest sounding.

If I understood correctly, there is no factory built support for surround monitoring? But I could work around this by grouping output level faders?

Are the output level faders analog or digital? By analog I mean digitally remote controlled analog circuitry like the gains for mic inputs in Fireface for example. If they are digital, then it would be basically the same if I'd route software returns directly to hardware outputs at unity level and control my levels from DAW?

Are there any plans to add surround monitoring? It sure would be great. With the ability to downmix 5.1 into Lt/Rt stereo sum to main L and R speakers and then again downmix the Lt/Rt into mono sum to center speaker. Ability to assign a separate output for mono sum would be awesome even in normal stereo production. And the ability to phase invert Main L or R channel before summing to mono directly from Advanced Remote Control. I can currently achieve these functions in DAW with basic downmixing and tool/utility plugins placed in the master bus, but I have a tendency of forgetting them on when bouncing. It's not a big deal, but it is quite annoying to realize I have bounced offline a 2 hour long mono side sum version of the project.

Bloody Rippa!!!   (That's ..err... Fantastic! Awesome!). Can't wait for dedicated Control room support of surround MC! Not that I'm complaining about the implementation now, as it works really well using fader groups.... But it might mean that I can use "Do not load Main volume/balance" once again! great!

This is great news!
Is bass management part of the surround support in the control room section?

Hi there I am moving a monitor controller over from an SPL surround control. I am wanting an update when this might be available ? I am working around it so far linking all outputs to mute and fader groups. A button toggles mute group 1 etc. I have to work out how to individually mute each output when calibrating however.

I am able to use the controller to manage fader and mute groups. This seems to suit my needs for now. I have a seperate fader / mute group for the phones out which goes to a custom headphone amp. So when I mute the main speakers I still have phones.

Yes please to Surround Monitor Control. I have been waiting for this a while now. It seems such an obvious thing, especially in combination with the ARC. I would love to loose my SPL from the signal Path.

RME is falling behind Metric Halo here. Their '3d' DSP has a complete b-chain for up to 7.1.4 surround built in. The issue is their interfaces don't have enough analogue outputs to make use of it which either requires multiple interfaces at great expense, mixing output types causing gain matching issues or going entirely to AES output rather negating the point of buying expensive Metric Halo DAC in the first place.

When RME originally showed no interest in surround this was justified because Ambisonics hadn't been picked up by Facebook for 'VR' sound and Dolby were still demanding a certified room for any Atmos work at all rather than just for the final render. Thus all the Dolby rooms had ProTools and AVID kit which is really a rebadged Digital Audio Denmark box.

As far as I'm aware there are two 7.1.4 or better dedicated monitor controllers on the market and they are both flawed.

The first is the JBL Intonato 24 which has speaker destroying noise problems on the analogue outputs in certain circumstances. the second is the Yamaha MMP1 which has signal to noise ratio problems on the analogue outputs. Which is odd because the matrix processors on which it is based are fine.

Thus if RME produced a interface with 16 analogue outs and the same kind of b-chain as Metric Halo are implementing then there would be a market for it.

Bit slow coming in on this thread but have just mixed the first 25 minutes of a 5:1 documentary I wanted to add one thing.

The muting of TM playback channels works great across 6 or however many channels your surround mix has running BUT solo does not work because solo only works on all channels going to one stereo output pair.

I have TM setup for 5:1 as 6 mono playback channels feeding 6 mono output channels so solo does not work in this configuration.

I can't think of a workaround for that as I don't think there is one unless someone else has a good idea:-)

The only way to solo one channel is to mute the other 5 channels.

Speaker B is for a alternate set of monitors, not a group. Unassign that, and instead just link the faders using Fader Groups.

Is there finally Surround support within the Control Room Section?
I am keen on upgrading from a Fireface 800 to an UFX and need at least 5.1 support.

Though I would leave this comment/ request here since this topic talks to the surround features in the control room section of totalmix.

Since we now know the room EQ and delay features will soon be added to TM, the one thing the control room assigned outputs require is dual mono functionality. Currently when you assign outputs to the control room section you can’t assign them as dual mono, only stereo. This limitation restricts the effectiveness of the soon to come room EQ and delay. Just thought I would flag that.

Kind regards

Ah yes! Quite right. The functionality is similar to how the ADI-2 EQ works for Dual mono. This then leaves the matter of individual speaker level calibration and also single speaker mute functionality.

Mutes could be handled on the playback outputs as could speaker level calibration but if like me you're working with a control surface this would then mean system volume control and mutes operate on 2 different levels of the Control Surface. Not ideal.

it's not that big an issue. Totalmix is perfectly capable now for this you simply avoid using the  the control room section completely when monitoring 7.1.4 and use mono outputs but if you were to go to the bother of making TM aware of 12 or 16 channel monitoring in the Control Room there are still use cases where dual mono would matter for example if you wanted mute control over a single speaker rather than just be forced to work in pairs only.

Kind regards

Hi Matt and thanks for the informative post.

I have all the answers and workflows I need in place now except for how to get limiting in Logic's master bus after the Atmos plugin to get printed into an ADMBWF but the other thing you talk about that's interesting to me is the idea of multiple render streams for export - say for example a 7.1.4 and a 5.1. Is this so you can bounce/ export both in the same pass? If it is, how do you deal with the different loudness reference levels for  EG Atmos (-18LUFS) and 5.1 (-24LUFS)Does the Dolby renderer figure this out for you? With all those alt mixes going to Sphere how to they get recorded back to disk? Back to Pro Tools inputs?

I've been doing multiple passes for this task adjusting loudness as desired. As an aside I've been doing more Atmos music mixing but a few films also. It's the music mixing I'm more interested in for now.

I have a far more simple setup than you it seems. After my DAW (Logic) all I have is Totalmix. You seem to have at least 2 further layers after DAW - Sphere and Dolby renderer. Sounds like you're happy with SoundID. I didn't get on with it too much - not enough customisation and I didn't always agree with it's choices and opted to use REW and measurement mic and did my own room eq moves.

My signal flow is after Logic's Atmos plugin I have a sample delay Plugin followed by 2 Linear Phase EQ plugins. This is where the speaker tuning and timing occurs. Once it leaves Logic it simply goes to Totalmix and Kali In-5's for all but L&R speakers which are currently Event Opals.

Still struggling to decide if I need Dolby Renderer software or not yet. When I first demoed it last year it was a lot less mature than the current version. What do you think of it? Is it essential for you?

What do you do for bass management? Sphere? For Atmos music mixing this is a big grey area. Many mixes don't put anything in the LFE or Centre speakers but then the playback system needs some kind of management to take advantage of the sub in a system.

The main excitement for me about RME's announced room eq/ delays is that it's a much better place to have this managed in Totalmix rather than on Logic's Master Channel. This will mean that for something simple like to listen to Apple Music currently I have to route it through Logic using Rogue Amoeba Loopback to get the speaker EQ's and delays. TM will handle this directly soon and all audio software will just go straight to Totalmix and no virtual IO software will be required ... Will definitely have a chat with you soon... Just have to wait for you to wake up in Adelaide:-)

Hey, following here– interesting thread.

@paulnajar, to add on Apple Music Atmos Playback which you touched upon: To make this work on macOS Ventura, it still requires a (virtual) audio interface with max. 16 channels.
I am currently using the "Pro Tools Audio Bridge 16" as an Output for macOS and my DAWs.
Then I am running Max as a plugin host which has  "Pro Tools Audio Bridge 16" as Input and "Fireface UFX+" as Output.
Max receives all playback channels (anything between Mono to 7.1.4), acts as a plugin host for Sonarworks Sound ID to calibrate speakers and headphones.

To come back to this thread's topic a bit: The Max patch also has simple Solo switches for each speaker, as this is something which still cannot be done in Total Mix. It would be great to have a Solo option on the Hardware Outputs in Total Mix, instead of the the CUE which I never use.

I also added 12 software thru's which go to my unused MADI Channels in Total Mix as those loopback into RME's Digicheck NG.
Unfortunately Digicheck only really supports 5.1 for the LUFS reading.

A downside is when working with video, there's no automatic delay compensation since things happen outside of the DAW.
@mattrixx: is this something Ground Control Sphere is taking care of? I saw it has EUCON integration which is nice, but can it report latency back to Pro Tools and other DAWs?

Also: Did anyone upgrade to Sonoma and can confirm that Atmos playback through Apple Music works directly with the RME driver?

Sorry Paul, things got hectic last night, so didn't get a chance to reply.
1.  Master buss compression..  Mmm, we have to think differently about mixing in this regard. There are ways of doing it (using phantom busses S/C'd etc etc at a channel level, but you definitely do not want to be comp/limiting after the renderer, as this will only be working on the bed of an Atmos master (ADM/BWF). Just a collapsed mess.
2. Yes the Renderer measures loudness (You can measure in real-time, or you can load an ADM/BWF and do an offline measurement.) Regardless of whether you are running live re-renders, the loudness measurement is derived from a "Loudness re-render" enabled in preferences.  It is a 5.1 re-render including fold-down trim settings.
3. Post processing other fold-downs can be done after.  ie the Binaural fold-down is obviously going to be louder than the 7.1 / 5.1 etc.
4. SoundID does annoy me at times, but you can actually export your profile and load it into the Dolby renderer manually from the txt file.. (painfully slow, but effective) In SPHERE, you can just load SoundID on the chosen output.
5. SPHERE has Bass management, but mostly, I run full range in all but the .1 (Bass management is switchable).

It's all super exciting and makes you think/consider a lot more about everything. I was guilty of feeding a master buss with EQ/buss comp/Limiter.. forever. This just doesn't work in the same way with Atmos.

Cheers,
Matt

Matt thanks so much for all the explanations!

The only thing I wonder is why would you want your SoundID profile loaded into the renderer and printed to your final output files? Isn't SoundID eq only designed to hear in your specific environment but not intended to be across final output?

Also my head scratching about how to include a limiter on my Adm BWF file output is really only to do safety peak limiting and it's really not changing the sound at all and I also find it useful for changing the overall output level to get the LUFS to conform for different downmixes.

I suppose I could simply use the master fader to do the same thing and problem solved.

Also guys, tip for music mixing in Atmos. The Centre and LFE channels are not on for about 50 - 65% of mixes I'm listening to on Apple Music. By leaving them off it allows a higher overall level without exceeding the -18 LUFS limit since both those channels are included in the 5.1 LUFS measurement for Atmos...

Kind regards

Paul Najar

OK that makes sense. The renderer seems vast in functionality. I may need to give it another look.

I’m not attached to master bus compression too much. As said it really is a quick way to know I’m going to conform to nothing over the -1dBFS limit but to be honest I barely have to.

About the most I’ve used it was on a film I did earlier in the year where the client really wanted a LOUD 5.1 version to compete in the film festival presentation setting where the operator doesn’t adjust playback vole from movie to movie. By driving the input to the limiter I was able to get him a -11LUFS version which is totally non compliant but he loved it and if you poke around the net there are other in this situation of having to deliver in certain settings breaking the rules to stand out…

PN

Oh yes, I agree. I recently mixed a commercial for cinema in 5.1, complying to 82 Leq(m). It wasn't really clear from the distributor if the limit of 82 Leq(m) is set for the momentary or overall measurement. I did two exports and they had a difference of -27 to -19 LUFS.

In the end went with the louder one which translated well, but would probably be smashing ears, if it got played back at the same level as a following movie, as those usually get mixed to the 85dB reference level.

I suspect playback volume of commercials must have a different playback level than the movie screening, but overall the levels of commercials did vary a a lot, with some being quite low. I was glad I did my homework and called the company who compiled the DCP for their advice.