Topic: How to add delay on monitor channel

I am using the UFX for playback in 2 rooms. Room 1 output is AN1/2 mains and AN3/4 subs after passing through digital room correction (DRC) and crossover. The DRC introduces delay.  In Room 2, an adjacent room, I have stereo speakers on PH9/10 channels and these do not go through the DRC, so no delay.

I want to synchronize the output between Rooms 1 and 2. Is there an FX effect I can use to create delay on PH1/2? Or some other way to accomplish this.

I am a novice user if you have not guessed!

UFX+; MADIfaceUSB; Startech active USB3 cable; Sonnet Allegro Pro adapter; Win11x64

2

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

If you don't need the Echo for anything else then this is indeed possible with a funny workaround. You just have to use the Echo as only audio path (channel fader down with Send up, Return channel no routing active but FX return up). Echo effect used is Stereo Echo, Width 100, Feedback 0, HC Off, Vol 0 dB.

Now the stereo signal gets delayed by whatever you set as delay time and shows up at the output where you raised the FX Return fader.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Brilliant! Thank you. I wish I understood the logic behind this 'workaround'.  Perhaps that will come with time and experience.

UFX+; MADIfaceUSB; Startech active USB3 cable; Sonnet Allegro Pro adapter; Win11x64

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

MC wrote:

If you don't need the Echo for anything else then this is indeed possible with a funny workaround. You just have to use the Echo as only audio path (channel fader down with Send up, Return channel no routing active but FX return up). Echo effect used is Stereo Echo, Width 100, Feedback 0, HC Off, Vol 0 dB.

Now the stereo signal gets delayed by whatever you set as delay time and shows up at the output where you raised the FX Return fader.

Is it possible to apply this fix to a hardware output in TotalMix? So a mix can still be set up using faders as normal...

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

mjfe87 wrote:

Is it possible to apply this fix to a hardware output in TotalMix? So a mix can still be set up using faders as normal...

Not directly, but if you have ins and outs to spare, you can mix normally to a free output, use physical loopback cable (madi, adat or whatever)  to reroute the signal back to a free input and use fx send and delay the signal with echo from that input to your final destination..

Fireface UFX+ | Fireface UFX | Babyface Pro | 12Mic

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

bsfreq wrote:
mjfe87 wrote:

Is it possible to apply this fix to a hardware output in TotalMix? So a mix can still be set up using faders as normal...

Not directly, but if you have ins and outs to spare, you can mix normally to a free output, use physical loopback cable (madi, adat or whatever)  to reroute the signal back to a free input and use fx send and delay the signal with echo from that input to your final destination..

Good idea, thanks!

RME, please release TotalMix 2.0 with delays built in - it’s essential in today’s world!

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

MC wrote:

If you don't need the Echo for anything else then this is indeed possible with a funny workaround. You just have to use the Echo as only audio path (channel fader down with Send up, Return channel no routing active but FX return up). Echo effect used is Stereo Echo, Width 100, Feedback 0, HC Off, Vol 0 dB.

Now the stereo signal gets delayed by whatever you set as delay time and shows up at the output where you raised the FX Return fader.

Just to add, the inbuilt echo function is measured in seconds to two decimal places, which effectively means the time delay can only be accurate to the nearest 10ms.

MC, can this be changed to three decimal places in a firmware update?

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

8

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

It's just a dirty and quite restricted workaround which for technical reasons can not be easily made that accurate. In other words - will not happen, sorry.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

MC wrote:

It's just a dirty and quite restricted workaround which for technical reasons can not be easily made that accurate. In other words - will not happen, sorry.

In which case, please add time delays as a feature request to TotalMix 2.0!

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

mjfe87 wrote:
MC wrote:

It's just a dirty and quite restricted workaround which for technical reasons can not be easily made that accurate. In other words - will not happen, sorry.

In which case, please add time delays as a feature request to TotalMix 2.0!

I believe it's a question of the DSP resources not being available in current hardware.

Madiface XT, Madiface, 3x Micstasy, ADI8QS
Sequoia 17, W10 x64
https://bsound.co.nz/tools-nix

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

no need to add them to every channel, just the output.

i managed to pull off a 100% analog monitoring chain (phew) so i can get away without using delays.

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

ploki wrote:

no need to add them to every channel, just the output.

i managed to pull off a 100% analog monitoring chain (phew) so i can get away without using delays.

Channel delays would be useful for multi miking socially distanced ensembles!

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

The ability to add delay (in ms or meters) on outputs would be gladly appreciated.

This could be a great feature when touring in venues without sound processor or mixing board that can do this job.

And even if the venue had a processor (they rarely let you tweak it) or a mixing board it could let me be a lot more flexible when I setup custom PA installation on stage.

14 (edited by Manuel 2022-07-25 13:20:43)

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

+1 would definitely appreciate this feature

Fireface UCX II, BabyFace Pro, Fireface UFX, Fireface 400

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

I must admit, I'd be happy to sacrifice the Reverb and Echo effects, for output channel delays (1ms increments up to 10ms).

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Matt McKenzie-Smith (UFXII, UFX, Babyface) MacStudioUltra OS13.2.1
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Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Me too.

ADI-2 DAC, Digiface USB, Fireface UCXII, ARC USB, Neumann MA1 aligned monitors

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

I wouldn’t

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Sacrifice regular effects or not, it’s becoming very necessary in surround studios where speakers are different distances from the listening position but for this for it to be useful you need sub 1ms resolution. You need sample level resolution or if not that then 0.1ms increments to get everything in phase.

Totalmix as it is now is fine for 12 or more channel volume control simply by fader grouping but where it misses is in channel delays - and if I’m being picky, more EQ bands on outputs. More like the EQ section of the ADI series. Then it would be possible to do full monitor control between stereo/ bass managed stereo & atmos and other surround formats. For now I use TM for monitor level in atmos but delays and eq’s I have to do on Logic’s master bus and when I need to switch between stereo and surround modes I use workspace quick access. Would be nice to have all the switching within one workspace

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Hi Paul, hope ya keeping well mate.
Unfortunately delays and 3 band EQs aren’t going to cut it for reliable ATMOS monitoring or even 5.1 for that matter. 
I’ve since moved onto using Ginger Audio Sphere with SoundID. Still using Totalmix Snapshots, but more for recording setups etc (talkback, auto muting rec channels  on playback (using ControlPilot) etc etc.  Sphere allows for some really elaborate, tuned and phase aligned monitoring and the ability to switch with the touch of a button, all the various downmixes being fed from the Dolby Renderer.
I should knock up a little video showing how it all works. 
Anyway, it’s night and day when you compare calibrated versus non-calibrated. 

Cheers
Matt

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Matt McKenzie-Smith (UFXII, UFX, Babyface) MacStudioUltra OS13.2.1
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Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Hello Matt,

nice to hear from You! Yes I know the TM 3 band EQ is under gunned for room tuning for sure and I have noticed the Ginger audio solution which looks very complete.

Totalmix already has the bones for being able to do what’s needed and I wonder if the UFX 3 has any more DSP power than previous versions? Some more EQ bands and delays is all it really needs to add to get the job done for Atoms etc…

As a user of RME’s ADI-2 FS R BE the eq section in that series is way better that the current TM and this added to TM would easily be enough EQ. So RME already have the code it’s just a matter of DSP resources - but even with the existing resources their devices have now, if all you needed was 12 channels of EQ and delays maybe there’s already enough DSP there now? BUT the resolution of the delays needs to be at least as fine as 0.1ms to do speaker tuning.

My issue is that I can do all of this now but it’s across multiple layers. I have some EQ and delays on Logic’s master bus after the atmos plugin then more EQ in TM. When I want to bounce I have to remember to bypass the EQ and delays on Logic’s master bus. If TM could do all this - delays and more EQ bands it would simplify workflow a lot. That’s really all I’m blogging on about.

Can I ask when you use the ginger audio software do you use something like Rogue Amoeba Loopback to get from Logic into the Ginger app or something else?

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

When mixing in ATMOS on Logic (which I prefer not to do, as I am more inclined to export everything into Pro Tools Ultimate, I use a virtual driver generated from Sphere, or a Source Nexus plugin after the ATMOS Logic Plug to route to this same driver.
The latter provides the ability to just bypass the Nexus plugin, to record more parts etc...  It's not ideal as you would know, to compose while using the ATMOS plug in Logic due to the latency.
I use an equidistant setup for ATMOS, so there are only a couple of channels with a delay of 0.1 or 0.2 ms.

BTW, anything after the ATMOS plugin on Logics master bus, is not included in the ATMOS bounce. So you should not need to bypass those ???

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Matt McKenzie-Smith (UFXII, UFX, Babyface) MacStudioUltra OS13.2.1
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Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Wow mind officially blown! Did i not know anything after atmos plugin in Logic did i not get included in the bounce! Very helpful thanks Matt. May be my RTFM moment:-)

So Ginger have their own virtual audio driver to send to from any DAW? And that is their preferred way of getting into their Atmos monitoring solution software? And then post the Ginger software you then send to totalmix?

I wish I had equidistant atmos speakers hardware. Sadly my ceiling is too low so the height speakers are closer than ideal. Delays are essential! This is another reason that latency might be added to my particular monitoring situation.

I’ve never tried to start composing a track in Logic with the Atmos plugin inserted. My workflow is mostly do the stereo version of a production to completion and then do the Atmos mix after that. There’s more latency? Had not heard this either.

Kind regards

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Yes, it’s very cool that you can do all that after the ATMOS plugin and it’s not included when bouncing the ADM BWF.

Yeah, the Ginger Sphere plugin allows you to create almost limitless drivers op to 64 channels wide.  Not only that, you can have a global plugin on each of the inputs, a plugin on each of the input channels.  But you would put your room correction there.. You use your outputs for me, the Fireface UFXII playback channels 1-12, which are routed in a snapshot to 1-8 and ADAT 1-4.  On this output I run SoundID, but you could do your own eqs and delays on the SPHERE out put itself, as well as independent channel delay.
It’s very cool, though a little expensive. Support is also excellent.

With it and TotalMix, there are so many ways to do things.

With the delays involved, there shouldn’t be too much latency added, as about 30cm is roughly a ms yeah?

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Matt McKenzie-Smith (UFXII, UFX, Babyface) MacStudioUltra OS13.2.1
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Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Matt, thanks for all of that. Food for thought!

I know we’re getting a bit OT for the RME forum but now I’ve slept on it I have to double check something with you regarding Logic’s Master bus in Atmos mode. It’s dawned on me that I have on numerous occasions had processing after the Atmos plugin and those sound changes DID actually end up in the ADM BWF export and also down mixed versions as well so perhaps there is some more to it than just no further processing after Atmos plugin? I know that bed & Object tracks go via different paths. Perhaps this is what you were think of?

Kind regards

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

Yes, that is right.  I am referring to the ADM BWF... Downmixes are another story.

Here's a link to the explanation of the ATMOS master buss.

https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/l … 111cb7/mac

As I mentioned earlier, I actually prefer to work in Pro Tools / DAR for this kind of work, as I can monitor all the fold owns at the click of a button and bounce them all out in one pass. (including mix stems such as DX, MX, FX etc.)
I think the Logic ATMOS workflow has a bit of maturing to do, but for music it's kinda fine. 

But, yeah, we're getting a bit off topic (sorry Matthias), but overall combining room correction and Totalmix is awesome!!

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Matt McKenzie-Smith (UFXII, UFX, Babyface) MacStudioUltra OS13.2.1
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26 (edited by aroom 2024-01-18 22:48:58)

Re: How to add delay on monitor channel

ok! now we have Room EQ and it's awesome!

@MC : is the limit to 42ms (almost 15 meters) arbitrary or due to the hardware ?

I can't remember a case were I needed more that that, but it could happen on some sets.