51 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-24 20:40:21)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

Exactly like I explained. Balanced it accepts +24 dBu, unbalanced no more than +22.5 dBu. Then the input stage will clip.


Thanks. So, in unbalanced use, input limit is +22.5 dBu then. Nice to know (later than never)! Why didn´t you or manual tell this first place? Important technical detail, should definitely (at least) be in manual on bold letters. I do back off accordingly from Yamaha then.


This is by the way major confusion factor and metering confidence shattering flaw in hardcore meter-Peter´s dream device like ADI-2 Pro. Machine is full of sensors, warning/protection functions and four different info screens/level meters (with six meter color options). But analog input clipping 1,5 dB earlier than meters show, when fed with unbalanced signal @ +24dB ref. level, is undetectable by any of them... Even manual doesn´t say a word of it. Has this accidentially been forgotten or metering capacity been already fully out-metered when this has happened? "Uncommon situation" does not validate as explanation.     



MC wrote:

Your way of motivating us to search for an unknown issue fails miserably.

Heh, sorry. smile Device this complicated may yield sometimes little cranky customers, as you may have noticed.

My major question still remains, though. Why other firmware than 259 / 111 drops analog-fed ADI-2 Pro´s output clean volume headroom so much...

52 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-24 23:39:24)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MstrC-117 wrote:

My major question still remains, though. Why other firmware than 259 / 111 drops analog-fed ADI-2 Pro´s output clean volume headroom so much...

If possible on your side, try to check the clipping level with digital fullscale ( 0 dB FS) sine-waves.
These are available from a lot of places in Streaming, YouTube, Test CDs / DVDs etc.
Clipping is very clearly audible with sine-waves, this takes every guesswork out of the equation.

Your methods using music tracks is not extremely precise or technically reproducible.
Use the sine frequency you boost the most with the equalizer.

Next step you can compare the two FW versions but flashing back the old one.

53

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MstrC-117 wrote:
MC wrote:

Exactly like I explained. Balanced it accepts +24 dBu, unbalanced no more than +22.5 dBu. Then the input stage will clip.

Thanks. So, in unbalanced use, input limit is +22.5 dBu then. Nice to know (later than never)! Why didn´t you or manual tell this first place?

I don't know why you ask for things repeatedly that have been clearly answered already.
Quote: This is not explicitely mentioned in the manual because usually no one has a source reaching those levels. Unbalanced is typically capped at +21 dBu peak level, everywhere.

After 5 years of sales and thousands of units in operation world-wide you are the first to exceed the unbalanced limit. And for the next to show up might need another 5 years...

MstrC-117 wrote:

My major question still remains, though. Why other firmware than 259 / 111 drops analog-fed ADI-2 Pro´s output clean volume headroom so much...

The most obvious explanation would be the only change in firmware - the new DC Filter function for the analog output. Did you activate that? If so then deactivate it and compare. But that would contradict your statement that earlier versions did show the same distortion.

As I am currently in holidays I will not check anything before next week.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Hello.Sorry,I can't find where I can choose DC filters mentioned in the post 2. Who know?

55 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-25 14:43:43)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Zilbertus wrote:

Hello.Sorry,I can't find where I can choose DC filters mentioned in the post 2. Who know?

If you mean at the RME Dac,

Press "I/O", choose "settings", go to the end of menu, you can find Dig. DC protection, off, on or filter can be selected.

For detailed explanation, see page 68-69 of the Dac manual.

Updated manuals DAC, v 3.0:

German: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_d.pdf

English: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_e.pdf

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Johannes AU
Thanks. This is what I found and did. But there were mentioned several filters, I thought that i can choose from several.

57 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-25 14:56:14)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Zilbertus wrote:

Johannes AU
Thanks. This is what I found and did. But there were mentioned several filters, I thought that i can choose from several.


That was not the filters you can choose, if I am not understand it wrong, it is kind of comparison, however, the PEQ filter you can set by yourself (PEQ LC F 20 Hz Q 0.7: Band 1 of the PEQ set as Low Cut/High pass in the DA path. Lowest frequency value is 20 Hz, so at 10 Hz there is already an attenuation of 12 dB.) , which is a first aid prior to this latest firmware with filter option to aviod Digital DC.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Johannes AU
Understood.

59 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-25 21:15:12)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

I don't know why you ask for things repeatedly that have been clearly answered already.
Quote: This is not explicitely mentioned in the manual because usually no one has a source reaching those levels. Unbalanced is typically capped at +21 dBu peak level, everywhere.

It wasn´t clear to me at all. Precise voltage limits had so far been expressed quite vaguely, to say, at least. Also that last 1,5 dB of Analog Input level meter scale being "invisible-clipping" -zone, in unbalanced operation @ +24 dBu ref.lvl, was unknown to me until now.

Now I know, so I´m not asking any more.



MC wrote:

After 5 years of sales and thousands of units in operation world-wide you are the first to exceed the unbalanced limit. And for the next to show up might need another 5 years...

Really? Nobody before me had invented to connect AVR´s headphone output to analog input of ADI-2 Pro, for listening movies/TV-series/game audio, with minimum noise levels available (@ ref. lvl. +24 dBu)?
Well... as have come out, personal home theater is the application where this limit may get exceeded...

60 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-26 06:03:21)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MstrC-117 wrote:

Really? Nobody before me had invented to connect AVR´s headphone output to analog input of ADI-2 Pro, for listening movies/TV-series/game audio, with minimum noise levels available (@ ref. lvl. +24 dBu)?
Well... as have come out, personal home theater is the application where this limit may get exceeded...

When plugging a power amp into a Line Input, it shouldn‘t surprise that the power amp can go hotter than a Line In is built for.

+22.5 dBu is already more than most Line In’s can take.


The metering issue should be investigated, but please, do use sine-waves for discussable results.



Sidenote:
Looking at the Yamaha‘s service manual, for the task I‘d prefer it‘s Pre Out for a shorter signals path, less distortion and noise.
The headphones out really is just derived from the power amp section’s speaker outputs.
A power amp with it’s slow high-current transistors isn’t the ultimate in signal quality.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:
weme wrote:

Here are now only some notes about ADI-2 DAC FS 78 / 48 unit and manual:

A: EQ function - B/T Enable changes activation:

A1. EQ Enable ON
A2. Load B/T with Preset ON
A3. Preset Select: Manual | Load ... -> Temp
A4. B/T Enable OFF
A5. Press EQ button:

A6. Changing gain (BB, BT) don't changing Bode plot
A7. Changing values (B1 to B5: G, F, Q, Filter) activates B/T (B/T Enable ON)

It could be that the function of A7 is intentional. However, it does not correspond to intuitive operation.

Adding the B/T stuff to the PEQ is extremely complicated under the hood. We did our best to cover as many cases as possible, but not everything can be done. That said please note that Temp and Manual are no Presets as such. So 'Load B/T with Preset' might not be valid for these.

The central EQ parameter "Load B/T with Preset" also controls Presets Manual / Temp:

- Set "Load B/T with Preset ON".

- Load Preset Temp
- Set "B/T Enable OFF"
- Load Preset Manual -> "B/T Enable ON"

- Set "B/T Enable OFF"
- Load Preset Temp -> "B/T Enable ON"

The order of the Presets when loading does not matter.


Workaround for A7:

Set "B/T Enable OFF"
Set "Load B/T with Preset OFF"

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

weme wrote:

Maybe RME could or better should motivate John Mulcahy to support the software control function with REW.

The computation of the equalization in REW would need to be constrained to the filter structure and the number of equalization bands that RME is using.
The actual entry of the equalization filters can still be done manually in ADI-2 DAC or ADI-2 pro.
This does not require any change of the firmware or the RME product itself, but it would create substantial additional value for the customers.

63 (edited by weme 2022-01-26 17:38:11)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

rbachl wrote:

The computation of the equalization in REW would need to be constrained to the filter structure and the number of equalization bands that RME is using. ...

Meant was "Software control of the input reference levels."

MC wrote:

Pro only
...

Software control of the input reference levels. The 4 hardware Ref Levels of the analog inputs can now be set via I/O Control on the software side. This allows e.g. measurement software to directly control the input level range to automatically avoid too low levels or overload.

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 98#p179898

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

weme wrote:
rbachl wrote:

The computation of the equalization in REW would need to be constrained to the filter structure and the number of equalization bands that RME is using. ...

Meant was "Software control of the input reference levels."

Could you please explain what is meant with REW here? Thank you.
I was assuming this is Room Equalization Wizard, https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

65 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-26 18:44:15)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KaiS wrote:

When plugging a power amp into a Line Input, it shouldn‘t surprise that the power amp can go hotter than a Line In is built for.

+22.5 dBu is already more than most Line In’s can take.


The metering issue should be investigated, but please, do use sine-waves for discussable results.

By its definition, actual power amp pushes current and power to (low impedance) load. AVR´s headphone output in this case works in line level conditions i.e. puts mostly voltage to high impedance load, ADI´s 9 kOhm input. No high current or power is transfered. Hence it works like line output, it can be think and used like flexibly adjustable line output.


Scientific -wannabe testers can test it with sine, for me acual movie material is more pleasant to listen and yields same findings.
 
Just other FW-version than 259 / 111, Analog Input, +24 dB ref. level, Hi-Power, meter almost (< -1,5 dBu) tapping input levels and > -8.0 volume level from ADI. And here we go.



KaiS wrote:

Sidenote:
Looking at the Yamaha‘s service manual, for the task I‘d prefer it‘s Pre Out for a shorter signals path, less distortion and noise.
The headphones out really is just derived from the power amp section’s speaker outputs.
A power amp with it’s slow high-current transistors isn’t the ultimate in signal quality.

You have checked wrong models service manual. Yamaha RX-V575 doesn´t have pre outs.

Headphone output is anyway good option for use like this, because its crucial multichannel to stereo downmix assuredly works (LFE-channel won´t get discarded) properly i.e. user / "device specific features" can´t fuck it up. Sound quality -wise Yammu´s HP-out  is OK, of course not super silent 120 dB SINAD -high end class like ADI, but good enough. It makes necessary partner for ADI in multichannel operations, as plain 2ch-device ADI is complete impotent what comes to multichannel material handling.

66 (edited by weme 2022-01-26 22:52:56)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

"B/T Enable OFF | ON" <--- "Load B/T with Preset OFF | ON"
Possible solution for the problems due to two central parameters for the same function

Hypothesis: The parameter "Load B/T with Preset OFF | ON" does not exist:

1. Since this firmware there are 7 bands in the Bode plot: 5 EQ and 2 B/T (realised).
2. The values of B/T are always stored (realised).
3. With the parameter "EQ Enable ON" the values of all 7 bands are basically activated (realised, small change).
4. The parameters "B/T" are thus treated in the same way as "G", "F", "Q", "Filter". The user is responsible for the values.

Special treatment of the Preset Manual is not necessary.
The function of "B/T Enable OFF" is comprehensible:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 74#p182374

67 (edited by weme 2022-01-26 23:06:01)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

rbachl wrote:

Could you please explain what is meant with REW here? Thank you.
I was assuming this is Room Equalization Wizard, https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

Yes:
Room Equalisation Wizard, https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
But it would be a "REW Pro upgrade"!

68

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MstrC-117 wrote:

By its definition, actual power amp pushes current and power to (low impedance) load. AVR´s headphone output in this case works in line level conditions i.e. puts mostly voltage to high impedance load, ADI´s 9 kOhm input. No high current or power is transfered. Hence it works like line output, it can be think and used like flexibly adjustable line output.

Line based electronics typically operate on +- 15 V = 30 Volt power supply. The max signal swing available unbalanced then reaches about +21 dBu.

A power amp works on +- 30V and up. The 100 Ohm serial resistor (or similar) of the phones output does not cause relevant voltage division with the 9k input impedance of the ADI (but of course with low impedance headphones).

So a 100 Watt power amp easily achieves a 'line' output level of +28 dBu. More watts and you are north of +30 dBu. Using the headphone output as line source could easily be called illegal usage of an output designed for something different (phones).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

weme wrote:
rbachl wrote:

Could you please explain what is meant with REW here? Thank you.
I was assuming this is Room Equalization Wizard, https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

Yes:
Room Equalisation Wizard, https://www.roomeqwizard.com/
But it would be a "REW Pro upgrade"!

Currently ADI-2 is not supported at all by REW.

It would be nice if computation of the equalization filters for ADI-2 could be implemented in REW,
but for that one would need to know more about the equalization filters in ADI-2 and
the owner of REW would need to implement the optimization of the equalization function
constrained on the ADI-2 filter structure. The resulting filters would then be entered manually in ADI-2.

It seems that software control of the input reference levels could only be useful for the REW measurement process.
However the levels for the measurement process can be easily adjusted manually, and REW is having
a dedicated check if the resulting SPL is in the correct range.

70 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-27 18:45:21)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MstrC-117 wrote:
KaiS wrote:

...The metering issue should be investigated, but please, do use sine-waves for discussable results.

...Scientific -wannabe testers can test it with sine, for me acual movie material is more pleasant to listen and yields same findings.
...

Calling me a “Scientific -wannabe tester” just because I suggest to use a reliable and reproducible method is an insult that asks for an excuse.

MstrC-117 wrote:
KaiS wrote:

Sidenote:
Looking at the Yamaha‘s service manual, for the task I‘d prefer it‘s Pre Out for a shorter signals path, less distortion and noise.
The headphones out really is just derived from the power amp section’s speaker outputs.

You have checked wrong models service manual. Yamaha RX-V575 doesn´t have pre outs.

Headphone output is anyway good option for use like this, because its crucial multichannel to stereo downmix assuredly works (LFE-channel won´t get discarded) properly i.e. user / "device specific features" can´t fuck it up.

On a 2nd look the 2 connections labled “Pre Out”  are just for the subwoofers.

So you’re right, the headphones out seems to be the only option to pull out a surround to stereo downmixed signal.

Possibly the “AV Out”-connector might work too, if configured as such.
User and service manual are unclear about this, e.g. if the (DA-converted) digital signals appear at all.
Would be worth to have a look IMO, maybe the configuration automatically changes for AV-out too, when you plug a cable (or simply a 6.3 mm plug or adapter) into headphones out.

There’s a sense mechanism activated by plugging anything into headphones out.
It switches off main speakers and changed surround configuration, probably to downmix surround into the front channels.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

rbachl wrote:

It would be nice if computation of the equalization filters for ADI-2 could be implemented in REW,
but for that one would need to know more about the equalization filters in ADI-2 and
the owner of REW would need to implement the optimization of the equalization function
constrained on the ADI-2 filter structure. The resulting filters would then be entered manually in ADI-2.

That would be great. Some years ago I once witnessed how the developer of REW included the filters of the DSPeaker Antimode 2.0 - that can also still be selected as EQ.
At that time it was that the developer needed some specifications, which then owners of an antimode wrote to him.
As popular as the ADI 2 is by now (see also the Oratory1990 settings) it would be obvious to do this for it, too.
Was there ever a contact from RME to the REW developer? Perhaps this could be added relatively easily?

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

There's also an open issue for adding shelf filters to AutoEQ which could achieve this: https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/issues/102. I played around with it briefly a while ago and the posted code can produce the 7-band paramaters needed but I have the impression it doesn't always produce good results. Then again, it also doesn't always do the most optimal when e.g. using just 5 PEQ without shelves so there seems to be something under the hood which isn't entirely correct. Whereas for 10 PEQ results are usually spot on.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KaiS wrote:

Calling me a “Scientific -wannabe tester” just because I suggest to use a reliable and reproducible method is an insult that asks for an excuse.

You are offended? Sorry then. smile

I have already described conditions in which problem occurs. With them willing testers should reproduce it too, if they want.

KaiS wrote:

On a 2nd look the 2 connections labled “Pre Out”  are just for the subwoofers.

So you’re right, the headphones out seems to be the only option to pull out a surround to stereo downmixed signal.

Possibly the “AV Out”-connector might work too, if configured as such.
User and service manual are unclear about this, e.g. if the (DA-converted) digital signals appear at all.
Would be worth to have a look IMO, maybe the configuration automatically changes for AV-out too, when you plug a cable (or simply a 6.3 mm plug or adapter) into headphones out.

There’s a sense mechanism activated by plugging anything into headphones out.
It switches off main speakers and changed surround configuration, probably to downmix surround into the front channels.


Have some obsession against headphone outputs of AVR´s?  Try them secretly sometimes yourself, may get surprised...

That "AV OUT" of RX-V575 is only a analog recorder loop (rec out), relic connection from VCR -era. Quite unuseful nowadays in general and totally unuseful in this particular connection need.

Yes, in this case using headphone output as a connection is too versatile, capable and practical; therefore total heresy. Audio nerd tradition requires much more weirder, difficult, unpractical and most of all EXPENSIVE solution. As a long time degrade -user I´m unable to change any more, though.

74 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-28 05:12:08)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

The user manual is clear, there is better option available to get audio out.

https://europe.yamaha.com/files/downloa … LFH_En.pdf

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

75 (edited by KSTR 2022-01-28 10:28:03)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

It's a complete mystery why @MstrC-117 is not doing what is the obvious and simple fix: Divide down the output voltage (or simply reduce level) of the phones out to acceptable values (which are industry standard, as mentioned). Only a tiny bit of reduction is required (3dB at most) and it will not compromise anything, neither noise nor distortion.

But it fits his rather arrogant stance and hence nobody will care too much.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KSTR wrote:

It's a complete mystery why @MstrC-117 is not doing what is the obvious and simple fix: Divide down the output voltage (or simply reduce level) of the phones out to acceptable values (which are industry standard, as mentioned). Only a tiny bit of reduction is required (3dB at most) and it will not compromise anything, neither noise nor distortion.

But it fits his rather arrogant stance and hence nobody will care too much.


Could be he turn down the volume already, but not want to admit the fault ... but who cares?

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

77 (edited by beat8000 2022-01-28 13:00:29)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

I have never used my HD800 with Hi-Power and near or over 0 dB. Additionally I wouldn't try a distortion test even with these rather old headphones.
I'm also planning to buy new headphones and I want to keep my full listening capability with modest volume. wink

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

beat8000 wrote:

I have never used my HD800 with Hi-Power and near or over 0 dB. Additionally I wouldn't try a distortion test even with these rather old headphones.
I'm also planning to buy new headphones and I want to keep my full listening capability with modest volume. wink

My friend cooked the class D amp circuit board of his KEF Egg with RME Lo-power output connect to its 3.5mm AUX in .... he just want it with "more control" .... like some IEM user want a high output DAP....

A damaged speaker or headphone can repair or replace... human ears not, no spare parts available.

Listening at low level makes you hear more detail of the music.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Johannes AU wrote:

Listening at low level makes you hear more detail of the music.

...and ADI-2‘s “Loudness“-function can bring back punch and brilliance if one misses such.

Depends on personal perception, and the type of headphones.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KaiS wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

Listening at low level makes you hear more detail of the music.

...and ADI-2‘s “Loudness“-function can bring back punch and brilliance if one misses such.

Depends on personal perception, and the type of headphones.


Yeah~
Carpenters, Superstar, lots of details and punch even slow smile

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Johannes AU wrote:

The user manual is clear, there is better option available to get audio out.

https://europe.yamaha.com/files/downloa … LFH_En.pdf


Tell me... what that might be?

82 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-28 21:02:38)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KSTR wrote:

It's a complete mystery why @MstrC-117 is not doing what is the obvious and simple fix: Divide down the output voltage (or simply reduce level) of the phones out to acceptable values (which are industry standard, as mentioned). Only a tiny bit of reduction is required (3dB at most) and it will not compromise anything, neither noise nor distortion.

But it fits his rather arrogant stance and hence nobody will care too much.

I countered that by backing off from Yamaha accordingly (-2 dB), as soon as knowledge of ADI-2 Pro´s Analog Input clip in specific circumstances occurring 1,5 dB earlier than its input side meters suggest, reached me.

This has nothing to do with main issues I have written about, though.

83 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-28 21:16:59)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KaiS wrote:

...and ADI-2‘s “Loudness“-function can bring back punch and brilliance if one misses such.

Depends on personal perception, and the type of headphones.

Headphone out of AVR is utter wrong... but loudness is OK... ...oh dear Jesus H. Christ with you. 


beat8000 wrote:

I have never used my HD800 with Hi-Power and near or over 0 dB. Additionally I wouldn't try a distortion test even with these rather old headphones.
I'm also planning to buy new headphones and I want to keep my full listening capability with modest volume.

Johannes AU wrote:

Could be he turn down the volume already, but not want to admit the fault ... but who cares?


Obviously you all are 2ch-only -listeners, fylly accustomed its car radio - / mobile- etc. backround listening optimized "dynamics", concluding your fucking around -attitude against my reported multichannel volume levels. Not understanding how actually dynamic (multichannel) material sounds and what it allows/requires from volume setting. Yout should try it first yourself in practice, then come gabbling about it...
Roughly saying there´s 20 dB difference in ADI-2´s volume scale, in comfortable listening volume level, between typical (digital fed via USB) stereo recording and (analog fed) multichannel film soundtrack.

By the way, my ADI-2 -volume setting for 2ch stereo music (via USB) has rarely, if never, exceeded -25. 


P.S. Netflix/TV -versions of movies won´t do it. They are almost always lame, dynamic wise watered down versions with additional compression for TV-speaker/soundbar -use. Source for experiencing that dynamic film sound must be BD/UHD-BD.

84 (edited by beat8000 2022-01-28 23:37:44)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

I have just downloaded the 5.1 Surround track http://www.lindberg.no/hires/test/2L-03 … 4b_01.flac and I have listened  to it with Hi-Power in Multichannel USB.
To my opinion -30 dB is more than enough with my HD800 which means that I'm using about the same level as in Stereo USB for the track http://www.lindberg.no/hires/test/2L38_01_96kHz.flac.

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3

85 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-29 00:00:33)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

beat8000 wrote:

I have just downloaded the 5.1 Surround track http://www.lindberg.no/hires/test/2L-03 … 4b_01.flac and I have listened  to it with Hi-Power in Multichannel USB.
To my opinion -30 dB is more than enough with my HD800 which means that I'm using about the same level as in Stereo USB for the track http://www.lindberg.no/hires/test/2L38_01_96kHz.flac.


Not any random internet download -shit will do.
Recording being multichannel is not synonym or guarantee for dynamic sound. As a bare music recording that one is most probably not taking advantage of system dynamic capabilities much. Try some well known action movie, with lot of special effects, instead. Source must have non-watered-down i.e. TV/streaming service  -version of that movies audio mix (BD/UHD-BD recommended) and ADI-2 -feeding multichannel to stereo -downmixer/decoder up to its tasks (AVR´s headphone output recommended big_smile).     

ADI-2, on its own, can´t handle more than two playback channels without special downmixing / channel routing arrangements in source (computer) end via USB. Your "multichannel experience" has been most likely compromised in more ways I have imagination to list...

86 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-29 01:27:48)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

@ MstrC-117

High dynamics is inherent part of classical music too, so very common to a lot of ADI-2 users, like me.

ADI-2 has such a low self noise that it doesn’t hurt to leave a bit of headroom on it’s side.
No need to squeeze out the last few dBs.


A power amp, opposed to ADI-2, always has limited dynamics.
The reason is architectural and unavoidable:
A typical power amp has a fixed gain of about 30 dB.
This figure subtracts from it’s input’s dynamic range, typically ending up at about 90 to 100 dB dynamic range, related to full power only!


This is the answer to your question why I so hard, but unsuccessfully tried to find another option for you connecting your ADI-2 Pro.

Your approach driving the headphones out as hot as possible is correct, in the light of this:

Your amps full power (115 W @ 8 Ohms + 0.2 dB dynamic headroom, from the specs) equals 32 dBu output level, and a specs claimed 100 dB dynamic range.
If you are now limited to 22.5 dBu by ADI-2 Pro’s Line Input, you end up with “only” 89.5 dB dynamic range = ca. CD quality.

If you have a noise problem, meaning you hear noise, I’d indeed suggest to use passive attenuators of -10 dB to optimize the result.

If you don’t hear noise you don’t have a noise problem and can save on the attenuators.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

Give it some time. It's unusual first, but matches the design of the Analyzer above it. And such log scale uneven spaces are fully normal and found everywhere. Getting used to this the old one just looks empty...

I agree. It’s a matter of form follows function. It belongs this way, as if that’s the way it always should have been. So much more of a pro tool now. Bravo!

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

@MC,

I Literally just got home from several weeks away, and immediately flashed my ADI-2 DAC with the new FW (48) in eager anticipation of utilizing the now even further refined DCP function.  Voilá!!   My favorite (albeit sometimes problematic) DAB stream is playing nicely!   The newest DCP seems directly targeted at improving MY enjoyment in a home use scenario.

Many Thanks for the early Easter Gift! 

Best Regards,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

89 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-31 05:49:46)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Curt962 wrote:

@MC,

I Literally just got home from several weeks away, and immediately flashed my ADI-2 DAC with the new FW (48) in eager anticipation of utilizing the now even further refined DCP function.  Voilá!!   My favorite (albeit sometimes problematic) DAB stream is playing nicely!   The newest DCP seems directly targeted at improving MY enjoyment in a home use scenario.

Many Thanks for the early Easter Gift! 

Best Regards,

Curt


Yeah~~~

Glad to know Miss Pi is walking hand in hand with Mr. RME smile

For me it is an early red packet before the year of Tiger, especially the refined DDCP new protection "filter" option, really ENJOYS that !

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

90

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

weme wrote:

A: EQ function - B/T Enable changes activation:

A1. EQ Enable ON
A2. Load B/T with Preset ON
A3. Preset Select: Manual | Load ... -> Temp
A4. B/T Enable OFF
A5. Press EQ button:

A6. Changing gain (BB, BT) don't changing Bode plot
A7. Changing values (B1 to B5: G, F, Q, Filter) activates B/T (B/T Enable ON)

It could be that the function of A7 is intentional. However, it does not correspond to intuitive operation.

It is easy to understand why this happens if one sits in front of the unit (as I do now wink

The ability to switch off B/T from the '7-band EQ' is a feature that I liked, for comparison and when one uses only 5 bands but wants to include Bass and Treble settings, plus when one doesn't use EQ at all and only saves the B/T states. In that latter case hitting the B/T button is more intuitive than the EQ button.

In all these cases editing the EQ with B/T Off would yield flawed results. One needs to have B/T On to adjust the EQ correctly, because next time when loading the Preset it will be loaded together with B/T again (due to the Load option On).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

91 (edited by weme 2022-02-03 16:31:18)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:
weme wrote:

A: EQ function - B/T Enable changes activation:

A1. EQ Enable ON
A2. Load B/T with Preset ON
A3. Preset Select: Manual | Load ... -> Temp
A4. B/T Enable OFF
A5. Press EQ button:

A6. Changing gain (BB, BT) don't changing Bode plot
A7. Changing values (B1 to B5: G, F, Q, Filter) activates B/T (B/T Enable ON)

It could be that the function of A7 is intentional. However, it does not correspond to intuitive operation.

It is easy to understand why this happens if one sits in front of the unit (as I do now wink

The ability to switch off B/T from the '7-band EQ' is a feature that I liked, for comparison and when one uses only 5 bands but wants to include Bass and Treble settings, plus when one doesn't use EQ at all and only saves the B/T states. In that latter case hitting the B/T button is more intuitive than the EQ button.

In all these cases editing the EQ with B/T Off would yield flawed results. One needs to have B/T On to adjust the EQ correctly, because next time when loading the Preset it will be loaded together with B/T again (due to the Load option On).

Effects of the parameter "Load B/T w. Preset OFF | ON":

1. "Load B/T w. Preset ON" activates B/T to "BT Enable ON" when loading an EQ Preset.
2. "Load B/T w. Preset .." is not available via remote control.
3. An EQ Preset is loaded with "Load B/T w. Preset OFF": If an activation of the EQ Preset B/T values is wanted, two actions are required: Changing "Load B/T w. Preset ON" and reload the EQ Preset.
4. Requires programme code ("BT Enable ON", Bode plot, ...).

Is it worth to still offer the function of the old "5-Band EQ"? There are enough EQ Presets to store all cases. Loading and activating EQ Presets is so wonderfully simple and fast.


Proposal:
For users and especially for programming, this "7-Band EQ" solution would be transparent and great:.

7-Band EQ:
Basic saving of EQ- B/T-values
Basic loading of EQ- B/T-values
Basic editing of EQ- B/T-values
Whether the loaded EQ- B/T-values are also enabled is determined by the existing parameters "BT Enable .." and "EQ Enable ..".

And if the function of the old "5-band EQ" were still needed, this could be solved optionally via a dialogue when loading an EQ preset:
Parameter: "Enable Preset B/T OFF | ON".
Action:
When loading an EQ preset, there is a dialogue: Enable Preset B/T Yes or No
...

Have I forgotten anything?

Here are some more ideas:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34695
(Topic: Upgrade to 7-Band Parametric EQ (PEQ) - comments and ideas)


Update 03.02.22:

The Topic

Topic: Upgrade to 7-Band Parametric EQ (PEQ) - comments and ideas

The upgrade to the "7-Band Parametric EQ (PEQ)" is a clean, logical solution. For the optimal conversion, program code and memory would be needed ... if available. I am very interested to see what is possible with the current hardware. You can read my summarised comments and ideas now:

1: EQ menu: frequency graph (Bode plot)

What you see is what you get:
The parameters "BT Enable OFF | ON" (menue I/O) and "EQ Enable OFF | ON" (menue EQ) also control the Bode plot. The loudness function is never shown.

...

has been deleted. The former contents of the topic have been entered here structured by topics.

92

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

You obviously are not a friend of using B/T. That is one of the main features of the ADIs, and more worth than a 7 band EQ - IMHO. I explained that in lengths in the manual.

2. Nobody needs that function on a remote.

3. Yes, two actions. Quite logical and no problem because users will not constantly switch between both methods but settle with one.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

93 (edited by Curt962 2022-02-02 10:56:11)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

I like doing it the old-fashioned way.  The 5 band EQ holds the basic "House Curve", and the B/T is at the ready for a "quick fix" on some material.  It's always been this way, and I like this arrangement.  No revisions needed IMO, and Four out of Five Doctors agree that me strolling across the room to tweak B/T is a healthful bit of exercise.  No menus, dialogs, clickety click or other.  Just Twirl an encoder, and be happy.   Seems almost genius in it's simplicity.

The existing arrangement is Spot-On for me.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Curt962 wrote:

I like doing it the old-fashioned way.  The 5 band EQ holds the basic "House Curve", and the B/T is at the ready for a "quick fix" on some material.  It's always been this way, and I like this arrangement.  No revisions needed IMO, and Four out of Five Doctors agree that me strolling across the room to tweak B/T is a healthful bit of exercise.  No menus, dialogs, clickety click or other.  Just Twirl an encoder, and be happy.   Seems almost genius in it's simplicity.

The existing arrangement is Spot-On for me.

Curt

I concur.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

04gto wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

I like doing it the old-fashioned way.  The 5 band EQ holds the basic "House Curve", and the B/T is at the ready for a "quick fix" on some material.  It's always been this way, and I like this arrangement.  No revisions needed IMO, and Four out of Five Doctors agree that me strolling across the room to tweak B/T is a healthful bit of exercise.  No menus, dialogs, clickety click or other.  Just Twirl an encoder, and be happy.   Seems almost genius in it's simplicity.

The existing arrangement is Spot-On for me.

Curt

I concur.

2nd it.

Only my case is a bit different from Curt, I have no "House Curve" because I do not care, I let the PEQ flat (again, after the DDC filter available), and only use B/T, Loudness. When I am fooling around in the house, I use the remote, pressing not twirling an encoder tongue

Did try to mess around with the PEQ and presets with B/T, understood how it works, then set back to flat .... the meter color still Amber ....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

96 (edited by weme 2022-02-06 22:27:16)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

You obviously are not a friend of using B/T. That is one of the main features of the ADIs, and more worth than a 7 band EQ - IMHO. I explained that in lengths in the manual.

2. Nobody needs that function on a remote.

3. Yes, two actions. Quite logical and no problem because users will not constantly switch between both methods but settle with one.

B/T is of course a basic function, it should never be missing - not even after a long day at night.

I correct my stupid mistakes, add and summarise once again:

Effects of the parameter "Load B/T w. Preset OFF | ON":

1. "Load B/T w. Preset ON" activates B/T to "BT Enable ON" when loading an EQ Preset.
2. "Load B/T w. Preset .." is not available via remote control: A user operates an ADI-2 with the remote control, a Preset is e.g. loaded with B/T ON. If another EQ Preset is to be loaded with B/T OFF, the user must go to the unit and change the parameter "Load B/T w. Preset".
3. An EQ Preset is loaded with "Load B/T w. Preset OFF": If another EQ Preset is to be loaded with B/T, two actions are required: Change "Load B/T w. Preset ON" and loading the EQ Preset again.
4. Requires programme code ("BT Enable ON", Bode plot, ...).


Proposal:
For users and especially for programming, this "7-Band EQ" solution would be transparent and great.

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 14#p182914

But my prosal for the "7-band EQ" is no longer relevant if the missing functionality of the old "5-band EQ"

Loading an EQ Preset without changing the current B/T values *

is needed (as realised with current firmware) or if the outlined solution (see below) does not find acceptance:


In my opinion, the function of the old "5-Band EQ" (*) should be possible without problems due to the number of EQ Presets. This would not unfairly disadvantage any user group.


It would be helpful if the users here could describe in detail why this is not possible.

This is the situation:

Basic saving of EQ- B/T-values   (when saving an EQ Preset)
Basic loading of EQ- B/T-values (when loading an EQ Preset)
Basic editing of the EQ B/T values only in the Bode plot
Whether the loaded EQ- B/T-values are also enabled is determined by the existing parameters "BT Enable .." and "EQ Enable ..".

Variant B:
B/T values: Optional saving - basic loading

Possible operation:
Saving is done with encoder 2 ("Save to (push 1s)") afterwards the text "Store B/T w. Preset Y" is displayed. Change from "Y" to "N" by turning encoder 2, save by pushing encoder 2 again. When saving with "N", the B/T values = 0.0. A long press on encoder 2 (> 2 sec.) automatically saves with the values of B/T.

Variant C:
"EQ Parameter (C)": "Store B/T w. Preset OFF | ON"
B/T values: Optional saving according to "EQ Parameter (C)" - basic loading

Variant D:
B/T values: Basic saving - basic loading
Loading an EQ Preset without changing the current B/T values:
A long press (> 2 sec.) on encoder 2
A long press (> 2 sec.) on the button of the remote control


Do you have any others?

97 (edited by weme 2022-02-07 11:39:19)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Turning encoder 1 changes the status of EQ and B/T

Turning of encoder 1 changes the status of EQ B/T *1).
This very useful function should basically be available for all Presets *2) and extended by the functionality "B/T OFF | ON".

*1) Does not always work: encoder 1 works without errors in other places, it should be due to the software.
*2) Turning encoder 1 creates the Preset Temp, if an EQ Preset was previously loaded.


Update 07.02.22:

Because in 100 years - when I dance around the hot pot with you - I won't remember my suggestions for this firmware, I add for users (@MC already knows it):

Using the rotary function of the VOLUME encoder for vertical scrolling in the "I/O | EQ | SETUP" menus
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 71#p182271 - at the end

D: EQ function - Proposal for the consistent function of encoder Volume
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 56#p182156 - in the middle

98 (edited by weme 2022-02-03 17:33:58)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Differentiated display of Bode plot when "EQ OFF | ON" - "B/T OFF | ON"

My first idea - mark the display "B/T OFF | ON" with other line shapes - is not perfect:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 56#p182156

Because there could be problems with the recognition - especially with the for all eyes very bad spectrum of the color blue (Band 5) - here are some more ideas:

1. Show the status as text in the frequency graph (Bode plot):
Each time the frequency graph is called or when turning encoder 1 (see above #97), a (big) text is displayed shorly (~ 1 sec.) in the frequency graph area:
EQ ON  B/T ON
EQ OFF B/T ON
EQ ON  B/T OFF
EQ OFF B/T OFF (gray lines show the deactivated values)

2. Show the status as text in the title line:
The text of "Phones", "Line", ... are displayed left-justified (option: only here)
From the right, use the free space (reduced in the PRO?) for the text "EQ" "BT" at a fixed position - a display only occurs when activated.

99 (edited by weme 2022-02-06 21:15:57)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Display of activated EQs - constant text "B" could be omitted

In the input menus (G, F, Q, Filter, B, T) the activated EQ is only displayed in gray. For operation, a stronger highlighting of the activated EQ would be better: a color other than white would be possible.

The constant display of "B" could be omitted: The label of the activated band (1-5, B, T) could be moved to the left over to the old position of "B". Perhaps a wide font would also be possible.

100 (edited by weme 2022-02-06 21:48:35)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Short-term display of input values in the frequency graph (Bode plot)

A short term display (~ 1 sec.) of the currently changed value (G, F, Q, Filter, B, T) in the frequency graph. Where these values are displayed (left, centre, right) in (big) Numbers, (big) graphic for Filter, can be determined in the programme:
- via the frequency of (F) for (G, Q)
- centre for (B, T, Filter)
- left or right for (F)
If a value is changed quickly and continuously, the first display position remains unchanged. Option to Numbers and grafic: added the name of the current band.

The redundant processing of the values should be omitted: Therefore the Menus "Parametric EQ" and "Bass/Treble" under I/O are reduced to the function "... Enable OFF | ON". This saves programme code and memory.