Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

RME told you this? If it's a faulty batch, they should replace our units, for the few of us with this problem...

No, nobody told me anything. In the text document of the firmware it says:
Babyface: 226
Babyface Pro & FS, Rev 6: 206
Babyface Pro FS, Rev 7: 320
Since our firmware is shown as 206, and respectively 207 in the firmware sent by Matthias Carstens, from there I found out that our batch is (Rev 6). If it was (Rev 7) it should show firmware 320.



Every time I start my PC, I need to check the meters in Totalmix, to see if they clipped or not, and then turn on the speakers, to protect them, and my ears. It's a hassle, I hope they find a fix. At least it happens rarely, but still...

You are very right here and I used to do that until recently, I turned down the volume on the right speaker and if there is no noise I turned it up.
I've had sound cards from the cheaper M-Audio, Audient, MOTU brands and had no problems with them. I wanted to upgrade to the higher end and most vaunted hassle-free brand RME, but overall I'm disappointed.

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Today, I was using the PC all day, everything is fine. I soft reboot the PC. Open the browser to a youtube video and get blasted by the white noise at full volume from the right channel, at night. In panic, I deactivate the EQ on the mains in Totalmix. Everything is back to normal.
Something is seriously wrong or buggy with the EQ in Totalmix and/or Babyface Pro FS.
The EQ is on all the time in Totalmix, I use it as a corrective EQ for the speakers.
Most of the time there is no problem. Sometimes I get messed up sound on windows startup (sounds like the EQ gains are exaggerated). I fix it the same way, by turning the EQ off and on again. On rare occasion, I get the white noise, but when it hits, it's maddening.
Please RME, try to find a fix!

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

anoise wrote:

Today, I was using the PC all day, everything is fine. I soft reboot the PC. Open the browser to a youtube video and get blasted by the white noise at full volume from the right channel, at night. In panic, I deactivate the EQ on the mains in Totalmix. Everything is back to normal.
Something is seriously wrong or buggy with the EQ in Totalmix and/or Babyface Pro FS.
The EQ is on all the time in Totalmix, I use it as a corrective EQ for the speakers.
Most of the time there is no problem. Sometimes I get messed up sound on windows startup (sounds like the EQ gains are exaggerated). I fix it the same way, by turning the EQ off and on again. On rare occasion, I get the white noise, but when it hits, it's maddening.
Please RME, try to find a fix!

I haven't had any problems for months, but yesterday I put the computer to sleep (not the first time) and after 2 hours I came back and after waking the computer and voila, that loud distorted pink noise came back full force and it almost blew out the right speaker.
I didn't take a video and decided not to share it with anyone until I saw you had the same experience.
It's just for RME to sort it out.

54 (edited by anoise 2024-09-20 23:04:13)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Interesting, we get the noise almost on the same day after a few months, and this happened before. What the heck is going on. Bit flips from solar activity or some paranormal activity. yikes
Jokes aside, it's a serious issue.

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

anoise wrote:

Interesting, we get the noise almost on the same day after a few months, and this happened before. What the heck is going on. Bit flips from solar activity or some paranormal activity. yikes
Jokes aside, it's a serious issue.

That's exactly.

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

What about getting Win Update around the same date? Or any other SW update? Cannot that be source of problem?

I have Win and BF Pro FS, but no 'blasts', but I make Win Updates manually and always restart Win after that.

57 (edited by anoise 2024-09-21 09:54:42)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

I got a win update last week and I turn off the PC every night. I don't think there is a connection with any software updates.
From what I have experienced, the noise or the garbled sound from the EQ, can occur after a cold boot, soft boot (BF is not turned off during reboot), wake from sleep. Seems like a software issue with the EQ, because it is resolved as soon the EQ is disabled. Speculation of course.

58 (edited by ramses 2024-09-21 10:45:36)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Regarding "up to RME to fix the issue". Some problems are machine or installation specific, which only show up on certain computers or installations. It seems that only a few people have this issue. This makes it much harder if not impossible to find any issue.

I would try to find out if there is a certain sequence of steps that reliably triggers the issue because it might allow RME to recreate and fix something.

Prerequisites:
1. I would always use the optional Power Supply to exclude any issue caused by USB power.
2. If possible, I would connect the BBF Pro directly to the computer/laptop and the other devices via hub.
2. I would make a backup of Windows installation with Macrium Reflect Home to have a disk image to which you can always come back if needed. Do not forget to save data separately on your Boot drive c: and in your Windows profile before restoring such a disk image of the boot disk.

If it is known how often the issue usually occurs, then I would try to find out if it really has to do with sleep and turn it off in the power settings first. Then observe this for a couple of days.

Shutting down the computer properly and restarting is not such a big deal if you make a longer break.
Windows Super fetch and the preloading of drivers and frequently used programs enable a quick start nowadays.

If the energy consumption is too high for you when you are not doing anything on the PC, then simply install the Process Lasso Pro. It offers the IDLE saver feature to automatically activate the energy-saving profile after a configurable time interval and reactivate the standard energy profile you have defined as soon as you are back at the computer.
Additionally, you can also configure Energy Profile per application, if the DAW needs a special Energy Profile.
If you do not want to purchase it, then set it manually or use 8GadgetPack and use a Gadget for it.
Or simply leave it as it is.

I would then check whether Superfetch is connected to your problems. I remember cases in the past where it solved problems when drivers and programs were restarted and initialized “cleanly” every time the computer was started. I also remember something like a "recommendation" to disable it for recording applications.

Do not change too many things at once, otherwise you don't know afterward, what solved the issue.

Another idea: get a 2nd disk internal or USB3 disk (best SSD) and perform a clean / vanilla installation of Windows with a minimum set of drivers and without any tools from mainboard manufacturer for things like blower control or BIOS and driver updates. These tools are often bad programmed and impact DPC latency and performance negatively.
By this, you can find out, whether the issue persists after a clean installation.
I have in my system always a 2nd SSD installed to be able to perform a clean installation and dual boot at any time for such purposes.

Another option: send the BBF Pro in for service and look whether RME can find something. Pre-align about costs with RME support via e-mail. I think if there is an error, this will be free of charge. If RME has efforts but can't find anything then it might cost something. Align with them on that.

Either you do this directly or you want to spend some work on your own upfront first, see my suggestions above.

EDIT: especially preinstallations from Laptop vendors are often only of poor quality. A vanilla Windows installation often helps in many ways.

Additional ideas:
- do you have another computer near to try the Babyface on a different system?
- do you have a vendor near which is experienced in building computer systems for audio processing?
Maybe they can check the BBF Pro on one of their devices or loan you a system for a week.
Then you can find out whether the BBF Pro runs on another system which is "proven" in terms of audio processing.
If the error does not show up then, then the issue is very much likely related to your system.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

It happens so infrequently that I would need to use another PC exclusively for weeks to see if it triggers the issue, which I can't do. Most logical would be to send it in to RME so they could use it for weeks and investigate, but I can't afford a new BF in the meantime and I need/use it every day.

60 (edited by ramses 2024-09-21 14:09:24)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

You could also ask your dealer if he could exchange / replace the interface.
Then perhaps a vanilla windows installation on a 2nd disk as I suggested?
Did you install Windows yourself, or was it preinstalled?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Custom PC, I installed everything.
The BF is out of warranty, exchange unlikely. Only if RME writes to them or something, otherwise they think it's a joke.

62 (edited by ramses 2024-09-21 15:07:03)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

anoise wrote:

Custom PC, I installed everything.
The BF is out of warranty, exchange unlikely. Only if RME writes to them or something, otherwise they think it's a joke.

If desktop PC, I would test another setup and isolate the BBF Pro FS behind a dedicated USB3 card.

Either this proven card with FL1100 USB3 chipset, PCIe 2.0 x1
https://preisvergleich.heise.de/sonnet- … 48037.html

or alternatively, one with ASMedia ASM3142, which also works fine with e.g. UFX+ or UFX III in several cards. This card needs a PCIe 2.0 x2 socket.
https://preisvergleich.heise.de/qnap-2x … 83656.html

The USB3 cards are fully backward compatible to USB2 and are using drivers with more efficient working MSI (message signalled interrupts).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

I use an external powered BF and yet I still have this problem.
I have tried putting the computer to sleep many times to cause the problem to appear, but to no avail.
The problem occurs very rarely, on average it happens every 6 months.

Perhaps the only way to determine the problem is to send one of the problematic devices to the RME team and have them test it for weeks/months, you don't know, they may find the problem in a few days.

64 (edited by ramses 2024-09-21 15:09:12)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

You have even another alternative.
Do not put the computer into sleep and wait for 6-12 months to see whether this is really related to sleep.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

ramses wrote:

You have even another alternative.
Do not put the computer into sleep and wait for 6-12 months to see whether this is really related to sleep.

I've tested it, it's not from sleep mode, sometimes it also appears on startup, let's say 10 problems, 6 are on sleep mode and 4 on startup.

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

ramses wrote:

If desktop PC, I would test another setup and isolate the BBF Pro FS behind a dedicated USB3 card.

Hmm, IF the USB controller on the mobo is at fault, maybe this is the solution. The Sonnet Allegro looks good. Thanks.
I suppose these are proven to work flawlessly with RME cards, right?

67 (edited by ramses 2024-09-21 20:15:39)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

anoise wrote:
ramses wrote:

If desktop PC, I would test another setup and isolate the BBF Pro FS behind a dedicated USB3 card.

Hmm, IF the USB controller on the mobo is at fault, maybe this is the solution. The Sonnet Allegro looks good. Thanks.
I suppose these are proven to work flawlessly with RME cards, right?

It is recommended for products which need USB3 because in the past some 3rd party USB3 chipsets were not so good with the USB3 transfer modes which need to be used for audio.

I heard compared to USB3, USB2 was never so critical. But maybe this card solves some issues and even if the issue should be that Babyface Pro FS needs to be isolated behind a dedicated USB controller.
Why not buying then a card which is proven for RME USB3 based products like the UFX III…
Should you upgrade in the future, then you have automatically a good working USB3 card.

The sonnet cards that I owned worked fantastic with UFX+, UFX III and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE.
But all of them got finally coil whine.
Therefore, I am trying now a QNAP card with one of the later ASMedia chipsets, which also seems to work fine.
To be on the safe side, I would start with the Sonnet card as they worked very well over the years
and is proven as it worked well for several people in different setups.
You need to look for the Sonnet Allegro with FL1100 USB3 chipset.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

What? USB cards get coil whine these days? That is an instant pass. I got my PC as quiet as I could, the last thing I need is coil whine.

69 (edited by ramses 2024-09-22 10:08:37)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

anoise wrote:

What? USB cards get coil whine these days? That is an instant pass. I got my PC as quiet as I could, the last thing I need is coil whine.

Look at the Sonnet, this card has two big coils. At the beginning with the Allegro Pro I had several years no problems with it, then I started. As the card with 4x USB3 chips on board was not in production any more I had to get a used card, they also had this issue. Then I decided to get the normal Allegro .. After 7 months coil whine, replacement card same issue.

Well … The QNAP looks promising. This newer ASMedia chipset I have for a couple of years in the computer without issues and I tried the former UFX+ with it, worked also perfect. So … you can, if you like, also try the QNAP card, but I have no long term experience with it: https://preisvergleich.heise.de/qnap-2x … 83656.html

Maybe you have better luck than me in the coil whine lottery. Same issues you have with GPUs .. some have, some not.
Most important is the card is working fine and compliant to USB3 standards. If you have coil whine, simply give it back.
And if you should get coill whine, you know now not only to look for the graphic card .. wink

EDIT: some additions. The fact that I had a coil whine does not necessarily mean that you will have it too. The first two cards had been in use for a very long time (approx. 8 years). The other two were bought at the same time, probably more to do with the production series.

Apart from that, everyone in the forum who got the recommendation for this card has been very satisfied with the Sonnet card so far and I can't remember any negative feedback.

Nevertheless, I am now trying another card because I heard that the newer ASMedia USB3 chips are ok, which is important for me in USB3 operation with the UFX III.

I have also noticed that the combination of UFX+ and the same ASMedia ASM3142 chip ran stable with another USB3 card in the past when I was curious and just tried. However, I use the card for other things, such as operating 2 external USB3 backup disks with a capacity of 10 TB each.

To sum up. I would therefore not be discouraged from the outset from considering the use of a Sonnet.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

70 (edited by anoise 2024-09-22 12:01:39)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Alright, I might have to buy that card anyway. I copied some files to an external HDD connected to the PC via USB 3, while some music was playing in Foobar2000 and I got some glitches in the sound coming from the BF Pro FS. In the fireface USB settings windows, under Buffer size there are errors: 0/84. I guess these are buffer underruns? It seems the USB controller on the mobo is weak.

Is this the one? It has only 1 choil and I don't see anywhere the FL1100 USB3 chipset mentioned. Should I buy this one?

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00GRGCV2G?lin … uage=de_DE

71 (edited by ramses 2024-09-22 13:55:58)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

anoise wrote:

Alright, I might have to buy that card anyway. I copied some files to an external HDD connected to the PC via USB 3, while some music was playing in Foobar2000 and I got some glitches in the sound coming from the BF Pro FS. In the fireface USB settings windows, under Buffer size there are errors: 0/84. I guess these are buffer underruns? It seems the USB controller on the mobo is weak.

Is this the one? It has only 1 choil and I don't see anywhere the FL1100 USB3 chipset mentioned. Should I buy this one?

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00GRGCV2G?lin … uage=de_DE

It is this card with FL1100 USB3 chipset, Part Number USB3-4PM-E
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html

If part number and USB3 chipset match, then it is this card.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

In this case, what will the USB card help with?
As far as I understand they work better than the ones built into the motherboard.
I guess it doesn't just mean better power to the audio interface.

I also have another USB audio interface of another brand connected to the same computer, which does not cause problems.

73 (edited by ramses 2024-09-22 16:07:43)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

memopro wrote:

In this case, what will the USB card help with?
As far as I understand they work better than the ones built into the motherboard.
I guess it doesn't just mean better power to the audio interface.

I also have another USB audio interface of another brand connected to the same computer, which does not cause problems.

Post #62, to isolate the recording interface from the rest of the USB infrastructure.

The more USB devices you connect, the more likely that you might get side effects.
Especially if devices share the same USB controller.

To be on the very safe side, I would add such a card so that it is 100% guaranteed,
that the recording interface has a dedicated / exclusive USB2 / USB3 controller for its own and no other device using it.

And the Sonnet Card with FL1100 is proven and even recommended for using UFX III with the USB transfer modes that it uses. It also works very nicely with USB2 devices. All USB3 controllers are backward compatible to USB2.
In an USB3 plug, you have even completely separated pins for USB3 and USB2.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

74 (edited by Kubrak 2024-09-22 18:06:07)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

memopro wrote:

In this case, what will the USB card help with?
As far as I understand they work better than the ones built into the motherboard.
I guess it doesn't just mean better power to the audio interface.

I also have another USB audio interface of another brand connected to the same computer, which does not cause problems.

And do you have that other interface connected to the same USB socket of computer? Different sockets may behave way differently. And the same socket may behave differently based on which devices are plugged to the "neighbour" ones that are serviced by the same USB controller.

That is why it is better to have dedicated card and use just one USB socket on that card.... As Ramses has already suggested few times.

75 (edited by memopro 2024-09-23 00:43:47)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

I have new findings!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tFgYCqqZMU

1. When starting the computer, I had a loud noise from the right speaker. This time I shot a video and made some attempts in Totalmix. I know from previous attempts that the speaker equalizer on off button stops the noise, so this time I tried the other controls in totalmix, no one of faders and buttons changed the situation until I got to the speaker equalizer knobs again, when moving the knob in the bass and midrange, the sound changed until suddenly it disappeared (Everything is seen/heard in the video).

2. Before turning off the computer I had left it on the headphone output, and at startup there was no noise, but after I switched to the speakers output and voila, the noise started.

The problem is related to the speaker equalizer and only affects the right output.

Well, the problem doesn't happen sometimes for 6 months and when it starts, it happens for several weeks in a row, until it disappears again just like that.

In the video, I reduced the level of the right speaker to about 1/4 of the level at which I use them,  i.e. the noise I hear every time when a problem occurs is about 4 times louder than the one in the video.
I use them at +4db (50%).
The bad thing in this case is that my daughter, who is 9 years old, was in the room and got scared and started crying.

76 (edited by anoise 2024-09-23 07:20:18)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Nice video and finding. Funny, I use very similar EQ settings on the speakers and phones.

Every time I start the PC, before I turn on the speakers, I turn off and turn on the EQ in totalmix, so that I eliminate the chance to get blasted away.

77 (edited by ramses 2024-09-23 07:41:59)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Then you have a volume mismatch and should consider to get a passive switchable attenuator like this
https://www.thomann.de/de/jts_ma_123.htm

Or a monitor controller like this one, there are several products on the market:
https://www.thomann.de/de/mackie_big_knob_passive.htm

See also this very informational thread to this topic
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25399

If you are planning to buy a reference converter, this will also fulfill this purpose, as it remembers the last volume setting. Then you can set the output faders in TotalMix FX to 0dB and adjust the final volume on the reference converter.
However, an attenuator could also help here in the event that the monitors are very loud and you have to turn the volume down too far.
You can take a look into this Excel up to what volume the reference converter keep high SNR/dynamic when turning down the volume due to a) 4-5 Ref Levels and b) auto reflevel feature to automatically select the best fitting reference level to optimize SNR. It takes also into account Bass, Treble, PEQ and dynamic loudness settings.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … v004-xlsx/

What should also work is to set in TotalMix Preferences that TotalMix FX should initialize the volume. 2 settings:

Snapshot and Workplaces: do not load "---"
[x] Always init DSP devices with TotalMix FX settings

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Attenuators and controller knobs have nothing to do with the white noise problem and are not a solution. I have attenuators by the way. This seems like an issue with the EQ. I hope RME sees that video.

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

anoise wrote:

Attenuators and controller knobs have nothing to do with the white noise problem and are not a solution. I have attenuators by the way. This seems like an issue with the EQ. I hope RME sees that video.

Maybe I misunderstood him, it sounded as if he has generally a problem with volume mismatch.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

80 (edited by Kubrak 2024-09-23 09:21:13)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Strange, maybe it is hardware fault that occures here and there. But it does not have necesarily be BF. It may be SSD, RAM, whatever.

What about trying to make a new TM snapshot? @MC would know better, but it seems to me that wrong filter values are written to DSP of right monitor channel. Or maybe the complete filter code (I do not know, how exactly TM sets effects in BF). And I am not even sure if filter code runs on BF, part of BF effects code runs in TM right on computer.

81 (edited by memopro 2024-09-23 17:42:46)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

TotalMix: https://ibb.co/LSjtC6n

In general, I hardly use anything from it, the equalizer is important to me only to calibrate my speakers and headphones.

82

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Thank you for all the feedback, the videos and your patience. In v 207 we went through the whole FPGA to improve timings, but it seems that was not the solution. This time, in v 208, we reworked the whole initialization and power up sequencing, especially for the EQ. Hope is that our improvements also tackle the issue. Please try!

Windows FUT Download:
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/fut_usb_bf_v208.zip

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Thank you!
Installed and running v 208 now. Let's see what happens. In the meantime I also ordered that PCI-e USB3 card, it won't harm to have one.

84 (edited by memopro 2024-09-25 12:30:33)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

MC wrote:

Thank you for all the feedback, the videos and your patience. In v 207 we went through the whole FPGA to improve timings, but it seems that was not the solution. This time, in v 208, we reworked the whole initialization and power up sequencing, especially for the EQ. Hope is that our improvements also tackle the issue. Please try!

Windows FUT Download:
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/fut_usb_bf_v208.zip

Thanks Matthias!
I will install, I hope this solves the problem and we can work with our favorite interfaces in peace.

85 (edited by anoise 2024-09-27 09:48:25)

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Sadly, v 208 did not fix the noise. Started PC, started music playback, noise in the right channel.

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

Today I installed the Sonnet USB3 card. Let's see if the isolation behind a dedicated USB controller will resolve this issue.

Re: Babyface Pro FS - Pink noise from right output channel after startup

anoise wrote:

Today I installed the Sonnet USB3 card. Let's see if the isolation behind a dedicated USB controller will resolve this issue.

I'm sorry the problem still persists. It hasn't happened to me yet.
I am following the topic, let's see what will happen after the installation of the USB card.