Topic: Driver for Windows on Arm

I have an AppleSilicon Mac installed.
Because I work with Windows, I installed Windows 10 and 11 using Parallels17.
I installed Driver for Windows but it does not work properly.

The installer shows "installation complete" but the driver is not actually installed and I cannot use the audio interface when I connect it.

I'm assuming that this is because the RME driver is not compatible with the Windows on Arm environment,
but what do you guys think?

Please help.

2

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

What I can confirm is that we will never test nor support such a configuration. Sorry.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

I could understand.
Thank you.

4 (edited by idimata 2024-09-18 20:20:18)

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

MC wrote:

What I can confirm is that we will never test nor support such a configuration. Sorry.

Now that the entire Windows ecosystem (Microsoft Surface, Acer, Asus, Samsung, HP, Lenovo, Dell) has gone Windows on Arm, will RME release native drivers for Windows' ARM-64 CPU architecture? Or at least will RME ensure compatibility with the emulation layer? I hope RME will at least consider it! I have three RME interfaces (UFX+, UCX II, and Babyface Pro FS), and I would like to use them on my new system. I hope the answer isn't that I need to sell it all and buy an inferior interface!

5

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

You need to read some serious press to understand that the current generation of Snapdragon and Windows ARM computers completely fail (!) for Pro audio. Simply said - nothing works. You might ask again in 2 years...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

Not to mention the OP wants to use the interface in a Windows virtual machine on Apple hardware (now that is a perversion), which is not supported and never will be.

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A

7 (edited by Kubrak 2024-09-19 10:18:55)

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

Exactly MC! Latest WinOnARM trial, the third one, is as succesfull as the previous two. And x86 (at least by AMD) may deliver the same power efficiency as ARM without any compatibility issues on Win.... So, why anybody wants ARM on Win is beyond my comprehension capabilities.

Trials to push ARM to Win seems to be like trials to manufacture round square.

@idimata MS Surface 7 Pro (i5) runs with RME interfaces just great. It is passively cooled and one may get one secondhand for about 400 EUR. (Later models or i7 models are not passively cooled.) Even better is MS Surface 7+ Pro that has easily replacable SSD and i5 version is still passively cooled. Also it is last Surface that has classical CPU and not big.little....

8 (edited by idimata 2024-09-20 01:34:04)

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

Kubrak wrote:

Exactly MC! Latest WinOnARM trial, the third one, is as succesfull as the previous two. And x86 (at least by AMD) may deliver the same power efficiency as ARM without any compatibility issues on Win.... So, why anybody wants ARM on Win is beyond my comprehension capabilities.

Trials to push ARM to Win seems to be like trials to manufacture round square.

@idimata MS Surface 7 Pro (i5) runs with RME interfaces just great. It is passively cooled and one may get one secondhand for about 400 EUR. (Later models or i7 models are not passively cooled.) Even better is MS Surface 7+ Pro that has easily replacable SSD and i5 version is still passively cooled. Also it is last Surface that has classical CPU and not big.little....

I already have a Surface Pro 7+ with the i5, with 5G, which I used for more than 4 years now. It performs very poorly and was the bane of my existence. It was holding me back. I couldn't even use certain programs I need to use. For example, DaVinci Resolve for editing videos for YouTube or otherwise: it's a no-bueno on my 7+. Certain plugins would struggle on it. Sampling libraries would be unstable and use huge amounts of CPU and Memory. Useless. Sure my RME works, but not much else.

The whole point of these devices is that they should be portable. If I have to carry an x86 Surface Pro to run my audio interface (and nothing else really) and an ARM-64 Surface Pro to run everything else, this is not going to work. I don't think that would work for most people, actually.

Edit:
Come to think of it, I actually also used an AMD laptop with a Ryzen 5, where I dual booted Windows and Linux (I did software engineering for >2 decades and have experience with both OS's). Linux is already ARM-compatible, and Windows's first foray into things ARM was terrible, but now the Windows experience is a lot better.

I would have to say that the difference between ARM-64 and x86 is night and day. Much faster, much more battery efficient, I don't hear any fans, and much more stable. I don't plan to go back. Even Linus Torvalds uses Linux on an ARM-based device. DaVinci Resolve 19 works on the Surface Pro 11, Reaper, and so many other programs I use.

I've done my research. It looks like to me like ARM-64 is here to stay, especially on Windows. I can easily see a lot of companies getting left behind and going the way of the dinosaur, unfortunately.

I think it may be best for RME to at the very least just ensure that it works via the Windows emulation layer for compatibility, even if there aren't any current plans to create native drivers. The Prism emulation layer appears to work very seamlessly for every program I've tried. There are just a few programs that don't work, really.

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

OK, you may buy x86 MS Surface or other computer. MS Surface 7 Pro runs Traktor 3 Pro (DJ program) and it did run even few heavy CPU plugins. Of course not many. It is not computer for heavy work, it is Win tablet, not computer for heavy computing tasks.

And cannot you run RME interface in CC mode? I know no TM in that case...

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

Kubrak wrote:

OK, you may buy x86 MS Surface or other computer. MS Surface 7 Pro runs Traktor 3 Pro (DJ program) and it did run even few heavy CPU plugins. Of course not many. It is not computer for heavy work, it is Win tablet, not computer for heavy computing tasks.

And cannot you run RME interface in CC mode? I know no TM in that case...

I do believe there should eventually be drivers and a compatible TotalMix experience. As a Linux user I can expect to be a second-class citizen and have to use class compliant mode, etcetera. But part of the reason why I still dual-boot Windows beyond compatibility is that I know that all the top companies are going to give it flagship attention. I don't expect to have the same issues on the Windows side. When Apple made the move to ARM, same thing. I think ARM is here to stay, and I don't think Intel's Lunar Lake and its battery life promises are going to steer it back to x86, because these CPU's will still have the same problems ARM solves including the thermal performance.

Anyway, this is just my opinion: All my years of building computers, programming them, using them... I've learned that my desktops and laptops are essentially the same components. I recently built a Mini PC with a 13th Gen Intel i7 for a project, and there was very little meaningful performance differences between the Intel Core i7-13700 used on desktops and the Intel i7-1360 I used in the Mini PC. They both have 13th gen CPU's. The memory also only differs slightly. There's just less room for expansion, less room for thermals, and less application for a powerful GPU. The essential ingredients are very similar. Of course we can into the technical nitty-gritty and argue about SoC's and the proximity needs for the memory to be close to them, etc! But my basic point is that the performance gains between tech of the same generation are going to be very roughly on par, except faster compared to the generation of tech before it.

In the same way, there's little performance difference in my experience between the Surface Pro line and a desktop I might build. The meaningful differences are going to be the form factor (it's portable!) and I/O, really. The Surface Pro 11 on ARM is faster than a 13th gen CPU. After getting the device, I can immediately tell the difference.

11 (edited by Kubrak 2024-09-20 16:35:47)

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

But Intel does not have good times last few years and most probably will not have next few years.... So, comparing Intel x86 and ARM does not give right picture.... One has to compare AMD x86 and ARM if one wants to make fair comparison of those platforms.

Bigger computer/notebook may have better cooling so CPU may run faster clock... And RAM and SSD and GPU may run also better.

I guess Linux is still niche as well as ARM on Win, so no wonder developers do not hurry up to develop SW for them. Few customers,  50-100% more work and cost of support....  It does not make sense.  If WoA makes at least 20% marketshare of Win market, than maybe....

But I doubt WoA will succede in current, third trial. AMD CPUs may deliver the same without any compability issues. So why to bother with WoA, unless one likes to experiment with new gadgets.

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

I hear what you're saying. However, I would say that it's new, I would not not quite classify it as niche yet. If it was just the Microsoft Surface line that went ARM-64 like with the Surface Pro lines that had the SQ1, SQ2, and SQ3 processors, I would say niche. However, this time all the major non-Apple manufacturers have gone ARM-64. So anyone who buys a reasonably decent non-Chrome-OS new laptop or 2-in-1 today will be on an ARM-64 device. I focused on Intel because they have  roughly 80% of the x86 CPU market, and AMD only roughly 20%. Of course I rocked an AMD CPU for quite some time, and they have been quite friendly to the Linux and FOSS community, but they too are being left behind. However, OEMs got on the Snapdragon X Elite bandwagon because there's a projection that 60% of their PC sales will be from Snapdragon X-based systems within 3 years -- that's a lot! They anticipate 30% of the PC market will be ARM-based within 2 years. Apple Silicon is already at 8-10%.

Windows 11 users are still only 31.6% of the marketshare compared to 64.14% on Windows 10. Of course it has something to do with the new higher hardware requirements for having Windows 11 that it's only 1/3rd of the current users, yet the pro audio market already has Windows 11 compatibility covered, even RME. (But it doesn't quite mean that Win 11 would be classed as niche, for example: Windows in total has 71% of the desktop marketshare and OS X only 15%.) If we were to compare all OS's including Desktops and phones, Microsoft is only second at 25% of all devices with the lions share going to Android at 45%, iOS third at 18.4% and OS X a distant fourth place at only 5.53%!!! However, major companies in pro audio still jump hoops to have MacOS compatibility, including RME. We're not going to be running audio interfaces from our phones, but I think you can appreciate the overall point.

I know it's a numbers game, but in 1-2 years, I don't think Windows ARM-64 will be only a small percentage of the users; I'm pretty sure you're going to see a lot larger of a number of individuals using Windows ARM-64 devices. I think it would become pretty awkward to not offer ARM-64 support. You could say that the previous Microsoft attempt at ARM was bad, but this time it's very different from the SQ# CPU days. Windows 12 is being worked on, and when it releases sometime next year it looks like that may do also do another market squeeze and push everything even more so towards ARM, although it may still have x86 compatibility.

13 (edited by Kubrak 2024-09-21 00:28:07)

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

We will see, if ARM will succede to be widely used on Win. I strongly doubt it, but it is not uncommon that worse solution/technology wins above the better one.... So, maybe ARM will find the way to Win.

AMD x86 has the same energy efficiency like ARM, anyway it is RISC CPU inside and just has x86 frontend...

People are not on Win11, because they do not want them. I may install Win11 on five computers of mine, and MS tries to force me to install W11, but I do the best to avoid being forced to install them.... And I switched do Win10 a year ago, till then I was on Win7 which I like better than Win10.  I will switch to Win11 in two years or so. The later the better.

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

Kubrak wrote:

We will see, if ARM will succede to be widely used on Win. I strongly doubt it, but it is not uncommon that worse solution/technology wins above the better one.... So, maybe ARM will find the way to Win.

AMD x86 has the same energy efficiency like ARM, anyway it is RISC CPU inside and just has x86 frontend...

People are not on Win11, because they do not want them. I may install Win11 on five computers of mine, and MS tries to force me to install W11, but I do the best to avoid being forced to install them.... And I switched do Win10 a year ago, till then I was on Win7 which I like better than Win10.  I will switch to Win11 in two years or so. The later the better.

I'm pretty sure ARM will overtake its competition, the Snapdragon X line also being RISC processors, and I don't think AMD's offerings will surpass the transition that's already taken place towards Qualcomm's chips, but I agree with you -- only time will tell! I agree with your actions/sentiment, I actually wouldn't be using Windows at all if Linux was compatible with everything for certain things I currently need to do. It's what we've got, however. I hope RME will strongly consider adapting support to ARM-64! We will see

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

As MC said currently no, and they might reconsider it in 2 years, or so.

Pretty good backward compability is what is valuable on Win. And ARM breaks it. Win is not Mac where one company decides and nobody asks users or developers. It just comes and the rest of the "world" has to adapt to the new situation. On Win things are not as simple as that.

We will see if the third attempt to introduce ARM into Win will end up as two ones before, or it will depend better.

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

Well I had the time to sit down and test things out. Of my 3 RME audio interfaces I tested my RME Babyface Pro FS in compliance mode, and Windows doesn't recognize the device: there are two warning symbols in the Device Manager. The audio interface isn't at all detected by the OS or any programs.

I understand what you're saying Kubrik, and I do get it having done software engineering in the past, especially developing software with device development on Windows and running into walls with many hours debugging. Regardless I don't think it's a great strategy to wait 2 years to see if things pan out and then start supporting people, in my opinion! I believe RME will lose business from sincere people (like myself -- I'm considering selling my audio interfaces, and it's shame because I think RME is the best out there!).

Re: Driver for Windows on Arm

If CC mode does not work on WoA, it is not RME's fault. It is fault of MS or designer of your computer...

If RME does not support Linux, which has higher marketshare than WoA, why should they invest their resources in WoA. And @MC clearly said that they have investigated it and found current WoA devices not capable work with audio.

Why should RME support platform that is not able to work reliably with their interfaces? It would bring no good. Just upset customers being angry that things do not work as they should.