51 (edited by ramses 2019-09-20 13:21:12)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Especially as the two Major players (Microsoft and Apple) cause nothing but issues und Windows 7 support is about to be ceased. Besides Win10 privacy issues which is also RPITA.

As I mentioned Steinberg asked users what major points they want to have implemented and Linux support is under the top ten if I remember right.

With Linux you get also Real Time support into the standard kernel soon, should be very beneficial for audio.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

52

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

+1 for linux support...

please RME can you make something in the same way nvidia have closed source drivers/software for linux.

For me that would be Ubuntu and HDSPe AIO

Thanks

53 (edited by loopbreaker 2019-11-08 17:33:52)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Linux Support for RME Hardware would be really great!

I use Windows 7 for DAW inkl. Plugins e.t.c., because it's realtime performance with 32Samples is clear better than from win10 1903.
For everything else (entertainment, office, ...) i use Linux. (what M$ did with win10 the last years is irresponsible.
If I do not need to use it, I do not use it).
And for small Audio Tasks (catching ideas, record/cut Audio e.t.c.) Bitwig... and u-He Plugins... do their Job in Linux just like that.
But i can't use my hardware-synths e.t.c. with the comfort i used from TotalMixFX e.t.c. with Linux.
I use the USB of my ADI2pro for Linux,
but would be great, if i could install my HDSPe MADI FX, and use it with TotalMixFX.

Best Regards

HDSPe MADI FX, HDSPe Multiface, 2ADI2-PRO, ADI2,
Nuendo 10.3, Bitwig 3
win10, Ubuntu 20

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

+1 for linux support. In my circles Linux has become even more popular than Windows and OSX, especially now as Microsoft has adopted some of the same disrispectful strategies as Apple.

Don't believe me - make a poll - or a kickstarter campaing! See how many will pledge. I bet you'll be surprised.

Furthermore - I hereby promise to purchase an UCX/UFX interface if there's support for Linux. You can hold me up on this, and please do. The lack of Linux compatibility has been the only thing holding me back. I also hate the fact I can't even use my Babyface pro fully. (CC mode just don't cut it)

55 (edited by ramses 2020-02-25 10:19:16)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Rough calculation for such a campaign.

I guess for this you will need around 4 ppl to work on
- design
- driver programming
- application programming
- testing and later support
- interfacing with Linux project, keeping track of kernel design changes, sound infrastructure
- Evaluation which of the Linux major packaging standards to support:
    RPM - Redhat, Fedora, CentOS, SUSE
    DEB - Debian, Ubuntu,
    Pacman - Arch
    or compressed tar archive for manual extraction and installation by either script or instructions in a README
- Which sound system to support on normal OS level, I know of these backends:
  JACK, ALSA, PulseAudio, GStreamer,   OSS (legacy).
- 2nd/3rd level troubleshooting of audio issues in the Linux world

2-3y time before all the rough edges are out. Makes around €250k per year fix costs salary alone.
And then you need to hope that DAW and VST/VSTi products will do the same investment in their area.

And this is not Star Citizen, people at the end expect a product to work with and you need DAW and 3rd party product support (VST, VSTi, HW controllers).

So to survive the first 3y you need around 750k and you do not know whether this will be really a success.
This requires around 30.000 people to fund €25 on average.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Ramses, the scenario you suggest is just one of many.

It most certainly didn't take 750k to provide linux driver for hammerfall cards.

And you can still get a big portion of the sales boost without an "official" linux support - or rather leave it on the community.

57 (edited by ramses 2020-02-25 22:47:32)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

> It most certainly didn't take 750k to provide linux driver for hammerfall cards.

I thought we talk about Linux support in general terms. Then we need to talk about drivers for all cards, how to intgrate into Linux (also for non ASIO aware applications) and a rewrite of all applications:
- TotalMix FX
- TotalMix FX Remote
- Digicheck
- ..

And its only my personal estimation. Feel free to convince RME, I have nothing against it.

But to be able to switch to Linux fully I need besides HW support also support for Cubase and VST/VSTi,
otherwise it makes no sense to me to switch.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Yes, you're probably right about totalmix being as big of an issue as the drivers. However, if totalmix runs on both OSX and windows, it may already be written on a multi-platform architecture. Furthermore, OSX is based on unix, so these worlds are not completely apart. Digicheck is useful, but not a requirement per se.

If VST's weren't well supported on linux, that would totally been a deal breaker for me too. Luckily the apps and tools I've used support both 32 and 64 bit, which is nice.

I used to work on Cubase too, but then moved over to Reaper, which runs natively on Linux, as well as on Windows and Mac. Another very popular one is Bitwig, which has nearly identical workflow to Ableton Live - and also runs natively on Linux, Windows and Mac.

I completely respect that everyone have different demands and criteria - linux is not the ideal choise for everyone. For my workflow, linux works much better - and this seems to be true for countless of other people, and the number seems to be growing. It would be so cool if RME would be there to support the movement.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

I may be a very simple person and the language barrier may also be an obstacle. But I still haven't got any answer as to why it's impossible to make closed device drivers for RME devices on the manufacturer's side for Linux? That's what I'm here recently investigated, no licensing problem, it should not be.

The question is exactly what the manufacturer wants. At the same time, I might be able to say when I read an ad about new RME devices and their goodness and if I would buy. That I don't buy because you don't want to support the Linux world. Although I mainly use Windows I will continue to invest in manufacturers that fully support it. I pay and I demand. If you just don’t want to do what your customers want, then your customer shouldn’t buy. There are options in the world. The situation is starting to be that the Linux side is now growing fast. Whether RME wants to be upstream supporting or downstream, supporting Linux. At some point it is mandatory.

On the other hand, if there is no time to even start, then maybe in the future I will turn to those who have that time. And it’s hardly up to the know-how.

And of course it pays when you take the third scheme of support. I guess no one has asked for them for free?

At some point I will buy new hardware and if the case has not developed in any direction then I will simply change the brand.

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Linux is very much like a moving target. Countless different distros with different kernel versions (some even making it hard to install proprietary drivers) and anyone trying to offer support will need to throw an unpredictable amount of manpower at it. That combined with a still small market... Regarding resources, RME is neither AMD, nor NVIDIA, I think.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

One option would be to choose an audio distribution which is supported. For example, avlinux. It is Debian based and stable. It also has a user base. Or create a Linux distribution managed jointly by the manufacturers. In much the same way that Midi used to be created https://linuxaudio.org/

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

sjzstudio wrote:

One option would be to choose an audio distribution which is supported. For example, avlinux. It is Debian based and stable. It also has a user base. Or create a Linux distribution managed jointly by the manufacturers. In much the same way that Midi used to be created https://linuxaudio.org/

Not a good idea as this doesn't make the situation any better.

It adds only to the fragmentation of the already fragmented Linux market and is not a real satisfactory solution for customers.

Customers put already a lot of time and efforts into their running Distribution and local installation and have no real interest to switch from their beloved Linux to another distribution.

Even worse, if this is being taken as a concept, then you will soon have dedicated Linux version for different commercial software. Surely not a good goal to go for ...

Linus should raise his voice and bring people together to put together a unified standard Linux distribution with one package management etc. But I think that nobody wants to pick up that ball.

So it will most likely stay as it is and this means stagnation and no better solutions..

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

63 (edited by sjzstudio 2020-04-23 16:49:31)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Of course, one universal line distribution would be the ideal situation. But still I tested Avlinux. Soudcraft's Ui24r worked in it plug and play. Probably also Fireface 802. But I missed the totalmix fx. I wonder if it would sometimes be possible to come up with a similar solution as the ipad works with these RMEs. That is, class compliant drivers and a totalmix-style control interface. If correct. I sensed the feeling of this chain, such is not coming during my lifetime.

However, this was accomplished with Avlinux tools directly from the package.

https://youtu.be/r3QdVA7ltzQ

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,

64 (edited by mrjulius 2020-07-20 19:30:16)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

If there's no will, there's no way - that's for sure. I think it's a bit nihilistic to argue that enabling people to use RME hardware on Linux would be unfathomably difficult: Nearly all hardware I have (and I have a LOT) has been plug & play in linux, even M-Audio (but not RME). All of my workstations and laptops have worked with linux right out of the box, much easier than with Windows. Some drivers are proprietary, some are not, some are done by a single developer without any help from the manufacturer. Having the CC mode is nice, but it's not enough for me. I'd like to see an ALSA-driver and Totalmix in some form or another. I don't expect RME to support all the distros, or even any single distro - RME may want to provide proprietary Alsa driver tested on one single distro (like Bitwig has done with Ubuntu), or merely provide the necessary documentation to the community and let nature take it's course. There's plethora of options for all the open-minded manufacturers. There's vast amounts of examples out there.

Microsoft no longer respects our privacy and freedom of choise, Apple never has. Thankfully we have Linux with it's diversity and multiple distros, and awesome communities around them.

For all devoted Gates and Jobs fans on the forum - We're not here to debate or guestimate how big the Linux market potential is among the potential RME buyers. You simply don't have this specific data or knowledge - none of us have. Only RME can evaluate it's position in the market, so lets let them do their own analysis, shall we.

Also remember you don't have to defend anyone: I'm writing this purely out of respect for RME - you guys make awesome products. And I get no joy out of writing this - In fact, if I didn't respect your work, I wouldn't bother using an hour of my time giving this feedback.

I'm here only to share my views on how to have my kind of customers buy more RME hardware (and I for one would buy UCX if I could make it work). Maybe you get some inspiration from my words and maybe you don't - if you decide to omit the Linux customer base and its potential, I respect you have realistically and open-mindedly considered the strategies and their cost vs reward.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Why not make it a crowdfunding project: Let people plegde the list price for a selection of RME sound cards with a promise of linux support - and if you get say over $1M of pledges, you'll release a linux version of TotalMix. If there's not enough pledges, you just forget about it.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

I have a 2nd machine running Linux but until my DAW of choice Cubase which I am familiar (used since the Atari)  with is supported or one that offers the same power (I have reaper and although good it is nowhere near Cubase) then Linux is just not an option fir me. Also it’s not always as stable as you think. A few times now the version I have has updated and then the audio stopped working. I have Cubase running with my rme interface on a win 10 pc rock solid. I need that on Linux. By the way I see as many problems reported for Mac as I do pc. In some forums even more. Definitely on the SD3 forum.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Somehow the funny aspect is that Behringer has bothered to make the Xair edit program for Linux as well. In addition to Mac and windows versions. Cheap brand. You would think a higher profile manufacturer would be able to do the same.

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,

68 (edited by tomg 2021-02-13 20:12:09)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Another issue is that there are so many versions/distributions of Linux and new ones pop up fairly often. If as a small firm like RME you start officially supporting Linux how many of these distributions do you have to commit to supporting and for how long? And supporting these may be even more challenging because some of these version are more/less optimized meaning they could use different versions of some underlying critical system libraries etc. By the way, I'm a huge fan of Linux over many years but it's only fair to point out these types of challenges.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

sjzstudio wrote:

Somehow the funny aspect is that Behringer has bothered to make the Xair edit program for Linux as well. In addition to Mac and windows versions. Cheap brand. You would think a higher profile manufacturer would be able to do the same.

Behringer is a giant operation. RME isn't.

70

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Another vote for Linux here.

By another big RME fan.

I have 4 or 5 RME interfaces of different types and use them predominantly on Windows because of lack of proper Linux support.

But I really don't like the direction Microsoft is going in. With Windows I increasingly feel as if I'm fighting the OS to keep it vaguely suitable for serious audio work. You get to dread the next update. What are they going to do to us next? It just doesn't seem to be going in the direction of a serious engineering tool. Quite the reverse.

I appreciate that RME have many things to weigh up with this but I sincerely hope that the balance will tip in favour of Linux at some point. Linux seems to me to be going from strength to strength and so I'd have thought it's a matter of when, not if.

In which case, sooner the better. Best to be ahead of, not behind, the curve.

Ian.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

ian wrote:

Another vote for Linux here.

By another big RME fan.

I have 4 or 5 RME interfaces of different types and use them predominantly on Windows because of lack of proper Linux support.

But I really don't like the direction Microsoft is going in. With Windows I increasingly feel as if I'm fighting the OS to keep it vaguely suitable for serious audio work. You get to dread the next update. What are they going to do to us next? It just doesn't seem to be going in the direction of a serious engineering tool. Quite the reverse.

I appreciate that RME have many things to weigh up with this but I sincerely hope that the balance will tip in favour of Linux at some point. Linux seems to me to be going from strength to strength and so I'd have thought it's a matter of when, not if.

In which case, sooner the better. Best to be ahead of, not behind, the curve.

Ian.

I am a huge fan of Linux (and also RME) but it is only fair to admit that supporting Linux would be quite a challenge. There are so many flavors of Linux and people using it are more likely to tinker with it (ie. compile your own custom Linux kernels, drivers, etc). I imagine RME support would have a really hard time trying to cope with all that without being able to even remotely predict whether some user report about RME issues on Linux are due to RME devices/code or some weird configuration Linux user may have put in place.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

An easy way to try is to make a bootable usb stick and study how it works.
Class compliant drivers should get started if you happen to have the right kind of RME device.
Personally, I still run on the studio side on a Windows machine, but AVlinux has been used at home for a year. Same software on both machines. Admittedly, RME's interface is in the studio. At home, Behringer's cheap box. Nothing here helps but hope hope and wait ... They do it if they want to. RME dudes would need a little Linux love. wink

https://www.bandshed.net/avlinux/

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,

73 (edited by mrjulius 2021-04-15 03:21:39)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

The linux support can be limited or it doesn't have to be official at all. It's not the manufacturers job to support ALL distros. That would be a very weird approach. You'd test the driver with just one popular distro (ie Ubuntu), like most of the other manufacturers do. All the major distros are built around the same Kernel and Alsa base. Also, linux users generally understand and accept the incompatibility risks, much better than MS and OSX users. Likely RME has experiences about this from the Hammerfall era (which had 3rd party drivers for linux). If there's a lot of secrets in the drivers, you could release them as closed source, like nvidia and many others have done.
Proper Linux support is actually not that rare among audio interfaces (I've used Focusrite, Behringer and M-Audio and some others), but there's just no match for RME hardware and TotalMix. That's why it's so darn pity RME has to be the only one I can't properly use. Being able to fully utilize RME hardware and Totalmix in Linux would definitely be a game changer.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Interesting take on this topic by none other than Linus Torvalds. He confirms what has been talked about on this forum as well - it is very difficult and next to impossible to properly support Linux desktop apps because there are so many Linux distributions and they use all kinds of different libraries etc (so if vendor wants to properly support they must build/distribut/support many different binaries which will of course occasionally break when shared libraries get updated, etc).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc

75 (edited by ramses 2021-05-10 07:26:28)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Thanks for the link. It would definitely be good if Linux would be more standardized.
But we're a long way from that and it's getting harder and harder the more distributions there are
and when so many Linux advocates and magazines think it's a good thing too.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

appimage could be some kind of solution for running Totalmix on Linux, for example, if RME could do that. But it will hardly help with driver integration. https://appimage.org/

Standardization would definitely be a good thing.

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,

77 (edited by ramses 2021-05-10 14:40:46)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Thanks for sharing this information, but I am not so convinced that this concept is really good and whether it is really suitable to be useable for all types of applications.
When reading for a while the documentation it appears to me that this is maybe nice for some application, but maybe not for others. They use the word "sandboxing".  But whenever you are sandboxing then maybe the communication to other applications might become harder should this be necessary.
And whether it solves the issues, that you have to ship with statically linked libraries.

TBH, I am not so convinced.

I am not against it don't get me wrong, but from pure design perspective, would this software / library package potentially be another "single point of failure" or "pain" ? If something in that area is broken then it might have an impact on all which relies on this mechanism .. wouldn't that be too risky for a system in terms of stability / operability ? I think it needs time to evaluate whether its more a solution or a risk or "another burden" to use that.

And you - as HW/SW vendor - would additionally have to fully rely on 3rd party software for a very important part of the system, the library section.

What do you tell the customer who supports this, when there is a problem ? Can you build your business on such a model, where it is not fully clear from which corner potential issues arise ?

The more I think about this it appears to me, that this is no good idea to use such a mechanism if you sell commercial software and have to support your products.

What if there is an issue, with whom do you or the customer communicate ? With Mr Torvalds in terms of kernel ? The people making the Linux Distibution ? The people who maintain the development system ? People maintaining the system libraries ? The people behind appimage ? Makes potentially everything harder. As vendor you need one contact like Microsoft or Apple if something goes wrong. And even such easy looking szenarios can become complicated at times...

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

78 (edited by sjzstudio 2021-05-10 18:56:49)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

As I mentioned, it could be some sort of solution. Depends on so many things how it would work in practice.

But a good example of the functionality of Linux-side programs is Harrison Mixbus. Works on all three operating systems. The installer is good and everything works as it should. For some reason, they have succeeded. As well as an increasing number of plugin companies such as U-he, TAL plugins, Audio damage, Audio Assault ... and of course Reaper DAW

I’m not saying it would be easy, but it is possible. Admittedly, I'm not a coder.

[edit]
As a side note, Celemeony put ARA on GitHub. It is now opensource. An interesting thing. https://github.com/Celemony/ARA_SDK

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

I would love to read a statement from an RME representative about their stand on future Linux support, please. It seems we the users have loudly cried for Linux support for a long time yet I, personally, have not been able to find any statement from RME.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

lightbox wrote:
punkrockdude wrote:

I would love to read a statement from an RME representative about their stand on future Linux support, please. It seems we the users have loudly cried for Linux support for a long time yet I, personally, have not been able to find any statement from RME.

It took me 55 seconds to find a statement from RME:

MC wrote:

We think about this from time to time, but most often we simply don't have the time left to even start it.

Thank you and I am shocked what you can do with your super power.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

lightbox wrote:
punkrockdude wrote:

I would love to read a statement from an RME representative about their stand on future Linux support, please. It seems we the users have loudly cried for Linux support for a long time yet I, personally, have not been able to find any statement from RME.

It took me 55 seconds to find a statement from RME:

MC wrote:

We think about this from time to time, but most often we simply don't have the time left to even start it.

And if you would have taken a few seconds more then you might have seen, that this is the same person who asked this 3y ago, see the thread from which you quoted: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 28#p132228

I'm pretty sure that after about 3 years he just wants an update from RME and no niggles from you.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Damn, people are uptight. Haha.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Wait, you actually are in such a RME defense mode that go through people's posts to see if there is anything posted earlier that you can use to attack?
C'mon. Are you really that sad people?

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

When you add up that RME statement that they don't have any time to even start it with statement from father of Linux (Linus Torvalds in that video I posted) that Linux is a nightmare to support on desktops it's really not surprising at all that RME does not want to go down the rabbit hole of supporting multiple Linux distributions and dealing with all the complexities of creating and supporting many different Linux binaries etc. It would actually be shocking if they decided to go down that road - probably would not be a great business decision even if it would be very popular with some of the RME user base. By the way, I am also a huge Linux fan and would love to see it but realistically it just does not seem this is where RME should spend their time given it's a small company with limited resources.

85 (edited by Be.0 2021-05-14 21:29:45)

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

If RME added ALSA mixer support to the Linux kernel or at least documented the USB signals required to manipulate the mixing and onboard effects, I think other people would step up to write GUI applications around these. Someone has already done that for the Babyface Pro. He had to use a hardware USB traffic analyzer, which are not cheap, with an iOS device, also not cheap, running Totalmix FX to do the reverse engineering. He added ALSA mixer support for some of the Babyface Pro's features but there are still significant limitations.

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

Those plugin companies that have started supporting Linux have generally done so for Ubuntu 18 and later

It cannot be everything for everyone. But it would be a much more enabling step. Another option in the future could be the music industry’s own Linux, which would be controlled by some community. e.g., linuxaudio.org. https://linuxaudio.org/

I would like this forum to have more respectful tone and avoid unnecessary provocation. There is room for everyone, both people and operating systems.

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

How about. a Linux-community crowdfunding project ?
The Linux-community should collect money and let the driver develope.

M1-Monterey, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver

Re: Why is it so hard to accept linux?

That may not be a bad idea at all. But how is that put into practice? I could immediately put, for example, € 100 for that purpose at first.

Windows 10, Mixbus 32c v7.xx, Fireface UFX+ &  AvLinux MXE, Mixbus 32C v7.xx,  Fireface 802,